Parent: Our son starts high school this fall. He is smart, and it is a good school. We are hoping he will get into a great college from there.
Me: Where did you attend?
Parent: Northwestern University
Me: It is tougher to get into a school like NU than it used to be.
Parent: He is a very good student except for homework. He is a good test taker. We are hoping he can get into a school like NU.
Me: What classes is he taking this fall as a freshman?
Parent: I don’t know.
Me: Your HS offers a lot of Honors classes for Freshmen. Is your son in any of those?
Parent: I don’t know. His counselor prepared his schedule.
Me: What math class is he taking this fall?
Parent: Whatever his counselor put him into.
Me: Algebra? Geometry? Algebra II?
Parent: I’m not sure.
Me: What math did your son take in 8th grade?
Parent: I don’t really know. I was never good at math. I am an attorney.
The point here is that this parent knows almost nothing about his sons education beyond the name of the high school, but has an expectation that his son will attend a school like Northwestern U.
It seems to me that parents with very high expectations can avoid a lot of frustration later by beginning to understand their students schedule, rigor, and grades beginning with freshman year, and begin to understand the type of colleges that are aligned with their students capabilities.
In the case of this student, if he does not take any Honors or AP classes, it is doubtful that he will have a chance at UIUC, let alone Northwestern. To me that is just fine. Each student should work at the proper level for them. However, the issue here is that the parents expectations are not aligned. This is likely to cause a lot of angst if they discover at some point that their son is not on the Northwestern U. track that they think he is on.
To any high expectations parents reading this, college admissions get tougher every year. If you think your child is top 50 college material and that is your expectation, then educate yourself early on about what that takes and talk to you child’s counselor candidly to determine whether that is actually a reasonable expectation for your child’s abilities. Having aligned, reasonable expectations can avoid a lot of frustration later.
I sometimes really feel sorry for our children … Nowadays, even flagship state universities seem to expect Algebra I in 7th grade plus a HS science in the Honors version. And yes, a lot of educated parents have big dreams for their kids and verbalize them, only to find out that repeating regular Algebra II as a junior doesn’t lead to Neonatology or Engineering in the most direct manner. So much has changed since the parents’ journey through college or even older children’s applications five or ten years ago.
What flagship state university expects students to be two years advanced in math? I.e. algebra 1 in 7th grade, calculus in 11th grade, multivariable calculus / linear algebra / differential equations in 12th grade.
However, the parent described by the OP better start looking at net price calculators on various college web sites, if s/he and her kid do not want to experience the shock of a financial shutout in April of the kid’s senior year.
The required level of math for engineering and various science majors listed can be completed by a student whose middle school math placement has him/her taking algebra 1 in 9th grade.
“The required level of math for engineering and various science majors listed can be completed by a student whose middle school math placement has him/her taking algebra 1 in 9th grade.” In our school, in order to do this you would have to pack 6 math classes into 4 years. It can be done, but if you are only taking algebra1 in 9th grade in our school district, you are in the bottom 25% of students, and you are unlikely to be going to college at all, much less the state flagship as a STEM major.
“Nowadays, even flagship state universities seem to expect Algebra I in 7th grade”. In our school, more than half the kids who take Algebra1 in 7th grade don’t even get into our state flagship.
@ucbalumnus: UF expects more than Algebra II for certain majors, maybe even more than PreCalc. According to my daughter’s GC both, UF and FSU, have raised their admission criteria in the past five years continuously. The best “hint” for UF I could find is this: http://www.admissions.ufl.edu/ugrad/frplanning.html
It might not be put in blatant writing but early math is pushed as much as possible, even in relatively low-performing, inner-city middle schools. One reason might be that passing rates of the Florida mandatory end-of-course exams are a lot higher than in high schools (http://www.fldoe.org/accountability/assessments/k-12-student-assessment/results/2014.stml - SPRING 2014 ALGEBRA 1 END-OF-COURSE ASSESSMENT) And then, of course, there are the usual criteria of course rigor and weighted GPAs.
One thing different about University of Florida engineering compared to other state flagships is that its schedule templates assume adding a summer session instead of taking slight overloads to complete majors that require more than 120 credits’ worth of courses (e.g. the linked ME major program needs 128 credits; instead of averaging 16 credits over 8 semesters, it averages 14.875 credits over 8 semesters and adds a 9 credit summer session).
However, that still does not change the fact that it does not expect students to have had calculus or post-calculus math in high school – it only expects students to be ready for calculus. Algebra 1 in 9th grade will lead to completion of precalculus and trigonometry in 12th grade, so that the student should be ready for calculus in college.
Regarding the end-of-course algebra assessment in spring 2014, 54.3% of the students were 9th graders (normal level), 30.2% were 8th graders (one year advanced), and 9.0% were 7th grades (two years advanced), with the rest being behind the normal level. So it is not like it is “normal” for all students to take algebra 1 in 7th grade.
In other words, stop panicking if your kid is not placed into algebra 1 in 7th grade.
What 6 math courses does your high school require for a student in algebra 1 in 9th grade to be ready for calculus in college?
High SES and/or laden with immigrant parents who originally arrived as PhD students or highly skilled workers, so that their kids are much more likely to be advanced in math compared to most kids?
Before you say, calculus isn’t required, no, technically it’s not but I am not aware of a single pre-STEM major headed to a state flagship or equivalent from our school who didn’t take any calculus. I recall a thread from a parent of a student at a college (Swarthmore, I believe) who said that he was the only student in his calculus class who hadn’t already taken calculus in high school. It may not be a requirement because the schools don’t want to slam the door on students who didn’t have good opportunities in high school, but I think it’s probably an expectation for students from an above-average high school where they do have the opportunity. According to wikipedia, there are roughly 280,000 high school students taking either the AB or BC calculus exam every year (and you cannot take both in the same year). This doesn’t even count the many students who skip the exam, or who take calculus in another way, such as at their cc, and therefore don’t take the AP exam. I know you’re fond of making the point that technically it’s a college, not a high school level class, but it seems pretty routine to me for any STEM major attending a decent high school.
My guess is that the parent knows who the Nosy Nellies are by the time high school rolls around prefers not to answer the OPs questions. The parent knows the OP will throw a fit if another student is on a more rigorous path than the OPs special snowflake.
Just my take because we are in a very competitive school district. And the planning and positioning starts in grade six here.
Odd that your school slow-paces what is normally 12th grade math (trigonometry and precalculus in one year of high school math). Calculus is not a required part of the high school math curriculum, as it is normally considered a college frosh level course.
Perhaps your high school has this odd math course sequencing because it inappropriately accelerates too many 7th grade students into algebra 1, so it needs to slow the pace down to accommodate them. But it means that the (few) true top students in math who are truly ready for algebra 1 in 7th grade and subsequent math courses at the usual pace will be slowed down. Meaning that, instead of:
7th grade: algebra 1
8th grade: geometry
9th grade: algebra 2
10th grade: precalculus/trigonometry
11th grade: calculus BC
12th grade: multivariable calculus, linear algebra, differential equations at a nearby college (optional)
I don’t doubt both of you, @mathyone and @ucbalumnus. However, the reality at my daughter’s large public high school (over 2,000 students with about 1/3 on free or reduced lunches) is that students who start Algebra 1 in 9th grade are either not college-bound or start at a community college/state college.
But back to the OP, the disconnect between parents who expect their children to attend their almae mater or similar schools and what path their children are set on in middle and high school. I was just making the point that I, like the OP, had conversations with some highly educated parents about their kids’ college plans and their math classes. And it’s just sad for those students to hear pre-med at UF from the parents and the algebra II repeat as a junior. At least, the parent knew about that but still had a rough awakening when the student did not get into UF or FSU but had to start at Santa Fe College or elsewhere.
Btw, I do believe that one can start out at a community college (they all have auto-admit agreements with UF, FSU, etc.) and still become a successful engineer, scientist and such. It’s about the expectations and the belief of parents that nothing has changed since they went to college.
“High SES and/or laden with immigrant parents who originally arrived as PhD students or highly skilled workers, so that their kids are much more likely to be advanced in math compared to most kids?”
Not sure what you consider all these things. Our school is diverse SES with about 25% what they consider economically disadvantaged. Black students outnumber Asian students. You just don’t want to believe that a school can offer algebra1 to 7th graders and not be some kind of magnet or other special school.
My take on the changes which may have occurred over the past decade or two is that there are plenty of middle school students who are ready to start algebra1 and in past decades have simply been bored to death in math (though not as many as our school seems to believe). More schools are recognizing this and supporting them rather than insisting that middle school go in lockstep.
Actually, I went to non-magnet schools in a school system that offered algebra 1 to 7th graders, but it was rare, and understood that such students were the top students in math. Such students took calculus BC in 11th grade.
In any case, you explained that your school system’s math course sequence is slow-paced compared to normal school systems’ math course sequences, possibly the result of pushing weaker students too far ahead in math in middle school. Or maybe it has to push all students ahead in math in middle school because of the slow-paced math course sequence.
@maters"My guess is that the parent knows who the Nosy Nellies are by the time high school rolls around prefers not to answer the OPs questions. The parent knows the OP will throw a fit if another student is on a more rigorous path than the OPs special snowflake.
Just my take because we are in a very competitive school district. And the planning and positioning starts in grade six here."
I love the cc cynicism. Completely wrong. Our kids play on a travel sports team together, but do not attend the same school, are not the same age, or even in the same grade, so there really is no competition.
Each of my kids are on a path that is appropriate for them, and none of them is a special snowflake. I do not believe that harder is better. I believe that finding an appropriate level for each individual kid’s capabilities and personality is better.
I am also not naive enough to think that the kids competition is in their classes. That thinking leads to the “My kid is getting A’s, so Harvard is a lock” fallacy. Lol
@ucbalumnus: You really got me curious and I went to the 2013 AP Report to the Nation: 150,854 Floridian students graduated high school. Of those, 13.7 per cent took either AP Calc AB or BC, AP Stat, or AP Computer Science. Only 6.4 percent had a passing score of 3 or higher with AP Calc BC showing the highest percentage of passing scores. Precise numbers can be found in the report: http://apreport.collegeboard.org/
No matter how you look at it, that are still more AP math test takers than UF and FSU’s combined freshmen classes. Please keep in mind that Florida students tend to stay in Florida because of Bright Futures, the lottery-financed scholarship program.
