Parents aligning expectations and reality

And while we’re on math, stats should be taught in HS as well.

Really, the whole math sequence leading to calculus is crazy. It seems that they teach in the order that concepts were discovered historically with no regard for usefulness or what concepts make better building blocks for others.

@PurpleTitan, that explains the random complaint I hear from math professors that they have to “unteach” high school calculus in order to teach the students how to think and really do calculus. A couple professors also mentioned the over reliance on formulas in high school calculus, rather than the thought process that used to arrive at the formula.

Sadly, I suspect that’s the route my child’s high school took. I think it’s why students perform poorly on standardized tests - if the formula doesn’t fit, the students are stumped. It wasn’t uncommon for 11th grade students taking Calc BC to only get a 2 on the AP exam. That surprised me.

I wasn’t so concerned about checking any boxes like “most rigorous”. I wanted my child to have the strongest preparation, which meant for her to have a good solid base, not to take the highest levels. Of course, if she were advanced and ready to take the highest levels, she would have.

I agree about needing a strong foundation. My older D was in a slower track in MS (due to a 6th grade math teacher that literally bored her to tears). The MS math teacher loved her - said she was her strongest student. She ended up senior year doubling up on AP Calc & AP Stat and getting her HS Math award at grad.
The negative impact for her is that the sequence of Math classes meant she couldn’t take Physics until senior year. Another crazy thing.

@Carolinamom2boys “My friends and I discuss this all the time. We run across unrealistic parents frequently. Many believe that because their child falls into the 25%- 75% for GPA and or test scores that it is guaranteed they will be accepted into that school.”

I can understand why this is confusing to many parents. If you are looking at Michigan State, for example, their belief is correct most of the time. However, most parents and students do not understand that at Ivy League schools, the majority of candidates in that middle 50% of the range are rejected. Being in the middle 50% range keeps a candidate from being eliminated immediately, but their ECs and essays will still need to make them stand out above their peers to gain admission.

@Much2learn I really believe that concept was really driven home as we began our college visits this past year. At every open house we attended, it was stressed that admission into any college or university , not just the Ivies, is becoming more and more competitive . We heard repeatedly “What sets you apart from any other applicant? " especially for the Honors programs at each school. " Every student in this Honors seminar has a great GPA , extensive ECs , awards . What do you have to offer our program?” Although this was somewhat difficult to hear, it helped my son and I understand what we needed to stress in our essays to even be considered for admission. It’s also not a given that just because you’re applying to a state run institution, that you’re guaranteed admission over an OOS student. I live in a state where 2 of our state universities are sought after by OOS students . It’s never been more important for students and parents to do their research . This is not a process that either student or parent can manage alone.

It is scary in our district that if you have not placed your child in the right math and science classes in 6th grade, they will not likely graduate in the top quarter based on the weighting of AP classes in high school. Usually the elementary counselors get it right, but not always. I have had many friends who say no one told them how it works and are pretty angry by the time the figure it out. The only remedies available to them is to have a kid double up in Algebra II and Geometry sophomore year or double up on sciences somewhere along the way and a lot don’t think about doing that until it is too late to do it.

These are smart parents who are involved in their kids lives. They just are not thinking about college at the end of fifth grade. They are worried about their kids changing classes, using a locker, etc. Again, our counselors do a decent job of getting it right but you wonder how many kids they miss who were just slower to develop in late elementary and hit their stride in middle school but have been shut out of those classes. It is hard to jump in late in the game.

Wow. Setting expectations is something I preach to my kids all the time. They’re probably tired of it, but I figure if expectations are communicated, it puts everyone “on the same page”, resulting in less conflict and less disappointment.

Making those expectations “realistic” requires effort…data collection and engagement in the process. I loved the public high school my children attended. It was quite diverse in ability levels, and yet they do an excellent job communicating opportunities, while validating individual wants and needs.

It is an asset in my opinion to be in a “unit school district”, which includes K through 12.

Student Services from the high school visit the middle school in 8th grade…and the middle school visits the elementary school. They hold ‘transition’ presentations for parents in the evening, including an ‘incoming freshman’ parent meeting where they emphasize a 4 year plan.

Lastly, I just have to add one thing. The scenario that @SlackerMomMD shared where “It wasn’t uncommon for 11th grade students taking Calc BC to only get a 2 on the AP exam” is mind-boggling! It not only makes me wonder what kind of grade those students received for the course, to me it also (more importantly) illustrates how education in America varies greatly from school to school.

That’s a pretty snap judgement. I’m not saying parents shouldn’t be aware of what their kids are taking in school but seriously, if you talked to them yesterday then it’s JUNE. High school schedules aren’t nailed down. In our area, your kid would fill out their form of what they might like or feel they are qualified for but they wouldn’t KNOW what they were taking until late August! As for math, schools can have different approaches and labels. In my S’s school, by end of senior year, most will do calculus but they aren’t packaged the same as traditional schools. In fact, 9th grade math is “level 1” and it’s basically a hybrid of Algebra I, II and geometry. My kids had equally as soft labeled 8th grade math that took too much explanation to impart to a near stranger.

On top of that, you only spoke to one parent. My husband is a fantastic dad who supports us, plays with the kids, sells refreshments at the concerts, practices basketball in the front yard with the boy most nights… could not tell you hardly anything about the kids schooling other than “they are doing great.” It’s not that he doesn’t care. He just fully trusts the kids and me to keep things where they need to be.

Another consideration, maybe the parent just sensed an intensity or competitiveness in you they chose not to engage in. I have a grade skipper and thus spent many years being questioned by other parents overly invested in how my kid is doing. I’ve often used the “I don’t really know” when I start feeling grilled by a parent. It’s a tactic you’ll see used by lots of parents with high performing kids who know from experience the dangers of playing the covert “is your kid as good as mine” game. I’m not saying you ARE that parent only that if you weren’t someone very close to me, your line of questioning would have been a big red flag.

I thought we had a good plan for my rising 7th grade DS but this thread concerns me a little. DS completed Alg II this year and had the highest grade on the final in his class of 8th graders. He was also the only AIME qualifier from his school this year (bragging just a little…). I am often concerned if he is going too fast and if he truly has a deep understanding and we have tried to ensure he fills in any holes by taking AoPS courses online.

His probable future high school has AP Stats and AP BC as their highest math offerings so we have considered moving to another location but have another year and a half or so to decide if that is warranted. Not sure where to go in any case, hopefully online AoPS will be adequate. Any warnings or suggestions?

@yearstogo , if your son was an AIME qualifier then your main worry isn’t is he going too fast but is he being held back? For him, the AOPS classes are good fillers. Others can suggest other online possibilities for more coursework in line with his abilities and interest.

Re: 11th grade students in calculus BC and getting a 2 on the AP exam

Seems like a case of inappropriate acceleration, perhaps due to tiger parent pressure. Students two grades ahead in math should be top students in math who should get easy A in the class and easy 5 on the AP test.

@yearstogo, wait, what are you concerned about?

You want to find a HS that doesn’t offer calculus?

Virtually no American HS would teach much Analysis.

Sorry if I was not clear PurpleTitan, I am worried that son will not have any math courses to take in local HS so looking for more challenging high schools. He is also plays travel soccer and is a decent tennis player, so hoping he can play sports in HS, if he is still interested.

Do you not think the recommend AoPS courses are adequate for a solid math background?

When my child was in middle/high school, I insisted that he learn the math in an “old school way”: When he learned geometry, I hunted down materials that covers the “two columns” proof and insisted he learn it (I do not care whether the school teaches it in this way or not.) When he learned the limit, infinite sequences/series topics in calculus, I also hunted down materials that teach the epsilon-delta (or episilon-N in the case of infinite sequences/series) proof.

In the stone age when I was in high school, the school did not teach calculus. But I found some math book which teaches this concept by myself. (I think I first learned the begining calculus from two books. I only remember the name of one books: “What is mathematics” by Courant (sp?) The other is a book translated from some Russian book. I also got some “frame-by-frame”-based book (somewhat like a “workbook”) which teaches limits, mainly its epsilon-delta proof.

Calculus was not in my high school course sequence and I could still manage to self-study it in some semi-official way (i.e., with some reasonably rigorous, convincing proof.) My child’s high school math sequence includes calculus; so I think he has no excuse to not learning it properly.

When my child learned physics, I also insisted he could derive most of the formula he used. When he learned special relativity, I also handed him a small book (like 150-200 pages ONLY?) by Resnick (He is the same author who coauthored a popular college physics textbook by Halliday and Resnick) which covers the axiomatic treatment of special relativity, using algebra only. Prior to that special relativity book, I handed him two other more “introductory” special relativity book.

Did I “abuse” my child by asking him to learn “too much” additional topics? He sometimes complain; but being a “good” child, I think he has at least studied like 50+% of these extra learning materials that I passed to him.

On the other hand, we rarely paid attention to the scores he got in various tests (esp. SAT.) In 7th grade, while many students particiated in SAT tests for the purpose of getting into some “Duke talent search” program, the day happened to have a conflict with his recital. We would rather want him to particitate the recital than that “stupid” test. (This actually gave him some small headache when he wanted to take some class at a local community college diring the summer after sophomore. Many other students who had taken the SAT could just take the course; he needed to take and pass some “academic screening” test required by the community college before he could take the test.)

After he had graduated from college, at one time, he mentioned to me that he could have majored in physics (even though he did not.) I consider his statement as a confirmation/compliment to my long time efforts of insisting that he learn such topics in the “old school” way.

@yearstogo, why are you worried that he won’t have math classes to take? He’s entering HS and hasn’t taken any calc yet, right? And there’s Stats. Probably no discrete math class, but he could read a book/take those online. Same with other math topics.

Solid math background for what?

As @ucbalumnus stated, even the toughest engineering programs (excluding CalTech and maybe a very tiny handful of others) assume their majors will start with CalcI (though some kids place out of that).

no he is entering 7th grade next year and has taken Algebra II already

@yearstogo You should look at this thread or create a new thread. The scope of this thread is beyond what’s you are asking. I am sure you will receive good suggestions.

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1774685-yet-another-9th-grade-course-selection-question-p1.html

@yearstogo, if your son is up for self-study, MIT OpenCourseWare has a ton of material.

@turtletime I think that you are still missing the point. I am really not particularly concerned about these parents, per se. I was just using it as an example of a common problem.

I agree about choosing not to engage people. I help people if I can, but I avoid comparing kids accomplishments. I don’t mind listening to theirs, and I will smile, nod, and sound impressed, but I will not share back. I have never felt like we are in a competition with other families at their school. To me, helping other people is a much better approach than competing. I don’t think that good parenting is about what each kid accomplishes, it is about capturing and developing the unique potential that is in each child. If my kid accomplished more, that does not mean that I am a better parent. A big victory for a special needs family may be much different than for a gifted athlete or a GT student. It is still a big victory.

@turtletime "…“playing the covert “is your kid as good as mine” game.”

I don’t need to investigate this. I already know the answer. No other kids are as good as our three are for us.

Wow, my S16 is lucky to be where he is. He just took Discrete Math ( disclaimer: I have no idea what that is) as a junior. I can’t say he’s thrived in his math/science math magnet, but he’s had the opportunity to be challenged in his best subject. Now about those English grades…