Our school system had this very issue when S was in jr high/HS. There were apparently also issues with some kids not having sufficient math skills for the Honors Introduction to Science freshman class that was on the most challenging science/math track. They therefore added a single 8th grade Algebra I class that was taught by a HS math teacher and used a different, more challenging textbook. Those kids fed into the honors class above, and took Honors Geometry freshman year.
This was ultimately part of an overhaul of the math and science curriculum from K-12. The goal was for far more kids to routinely take AP sciences and AP Calc, or simply math through calculus, not just the most talented segment of the class that was already doing so.
@coolweather, my understanding is that analysis is taught soon after the intro course to basic differentiation and integration in most of Europe. So 1st year of uni or the year before. BTW, “Europe” includes the German, Dutch, and Russian school systems as well, not just the English-language ones or IB.
@mstomper, discrete math, probability, and stats definitely could be taught right after algebra and before or alongside calculus. They are certainly more useful than calculus in the real world as well, IMO.
While I can definitely relate to clueless, entitled parents that make my head spin, I also felt your interrogation was a tad bit aggressive. Next time, just wish them all the luck in the world and walk away. There is no need to waste your time on their ignorant bliss.
My post #73 refers to the book: “What is mathematics” (from which both I and my then-high-school child got our first exposure to the concept of calculus more officially.) Here is a review of this book:
What is mathematics by Richard Courant and Herbert Robbins, revised by Ian Stewart
I also like the exposition of the calculus concept in the relatively small-sized book: Pure Mathematics (by Hardy?) – It is true that when my child started to learn calculus, I was somewhat obsessed with finding all the “good” ways of learning this topic. (It was not that I could not understand it myself. Rather, I was trying to find the most “enlightening” way of approaching this interesting topic for his background at that time. I collected a pile of such “introductory” level books and then I picked the “best” sections in one or two books for him to read and he could discuss with me if needed after he had read them.
I chuckled when I read this (as a joke?) (in this review): the teaching of Euclid Geometry should probably be passed to the department of history (instead of the department of mathematics.)
The review referred above recommends a book for the teens who are interested in the application of mathematics (likely not in a sugar-coated/intellectually-diluted way.)
The pleasures of counting, by T.W. Korner
This author (T. W. Korner) also wrote a well-known Fourier Analysis book but it is not meant for the general public.
“Next time, just wish them all the luck in the world and walk away. There is no need to waste your time on their ignorant bliss.”
I am always Interested in the perspective some people have on this. If a person says they hope their kid will attend Northwestern, asking whether their student is in advanced classes seems too invasive to some. However, if someone said they were hoping their son would play football for Northwestern, they would not think it was too invasive to ask about the students sports ability.
I think it is cultural. I do that too sometimes. I saw that one parent at our school posted their kids ACT score and I thought that was very awkward. Another parent bragged about their star athletes accomplishments and I thought it was great that they were proud of him. I am not really sure why it is different, but I would definitely not post any grade or score.
“The United States Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that 2.2 million freshman students (68.6% of all 2008 high school graduates) were enrolled in college as of October of that year.”
380,000 students took the AP calculus AB or BC exam, and others didn’t take an exam or took a college course instead. I am thinking well over 20% of college students took calculus in high school. Somewhere I think the actual figure is available but I am not going to go searching for it again. Doesn’t mean you have to have it, but I would think the more selective colleges would expect it, especially from their prospective STEM majors, assuming they had the opportunity in high school.
You aren’t going to see schools saying they absolutely require calculus because that would exclude students from weaker school districts. They will be accused of classism, racism, etc. But every single school we visited said over and over again that they like to see students taking the most rigorous courses. What do you all think this means, if not calculus in a school which offers calculus? William and Mary even came out and cearly said on their website that they prefer calculus to the widely-considered-less-rigorous stats. So when they say most rigorous, I don’t think they mean go ahead and take AP human geography and don’t worry about calculus. I don’t think William and Mary is an exception among selective schools. They were just willing to say it, and evidently now they aren’t any more.
I think a lot of parents aren’t aware how much more is expected of students these days. Why would they, until they go through it?
Some of the summer math programs out there get into analysis – look at MATHILY and HCSSiM. And yes, colleges with strong math departments know about these programs. Some of the better-known math/sci magnets do offer math well beyond Calc BC. I will be the first to say this is NOT the normal path for middle/high school students.
One of my kids took Alg I as a 7th grader and got hammered in Alg II. The Alg I course had been watered down so much in order to get more students into it that the Alg II teachers were left cleaning up the mess. Kids at the math/science magnet programs had more rigorous versions of each course. He went to a selective admit IB program and the HL Math took you a bit beyond BC calc into some MV. My S took Calc AB and AP Stat (and the SL Math Studies exam, which was easier than the APs, but does not garner college credit).
I definitely have the impression that when DD1 was visiting and applying to engineering programs that getting a 5 on AP Calc BC as a Junior was a plus, and so was showing MV Calculus in her senior year transcript. Schools know that BC Calculus is difficult for many students and having successfully completed it has to be a plus. AP Physics C seemed to be a plus too.
I am sure isn’t required but it is one more piece of evidence that a kid is the real deal. In the world of 2300+ SAT scores, near perfect gpas, and 750 plus subject tests, it seems to me that sometimes small factors like this may tip a decision.
I think that success in Calculus has to become increasingly important for candidates as the number of applicants who have successfully taken the class continues to grow.
Bottom line - in the year 2015, taking calculus in high school is now the rule, not the exception, for STEM majors. Some key quotes:
[QUOTE]
At the research universities, those characterized by offering a doctorate in mathematics and dominated by the flagship state universities, over 70% of the students in Calculus I had completed a course of calculus in high school …/QUOTE
So I think it’s fair to say that most STEM majors will have gotten a 3 or better on an AP Calculus exam before entering college. And that’s across all bachelor degree granting institutions; for selective colleges the proportion will skew much higher.
Yes, it’s true that almost no college requires students to take calculus in high school, but there’s often a big difference between the bare minimum you need to be considered for admission and what the practical realities for most kids are. There are at least 3 distinct questions: 1) will you get admitted 2) are you setup for success at college in your preferred major 3) can you graduate in 4 years. Engineering students who didn’t take calculus (but who could have) technically can graduate in 4 years, but good luck with getting admitted to begin with, much less hanging with the competition at a school like Berkeley.
I’d definitely say that if you’re a prospective STEM major who wants to attend a school at the level of a semi-decent state flagship or above, then you’d pretty much better have taken calculus in high school if it’s offered. Exceptions are certainly possible if your high school doesn’t offer calculus, and somewhat possible if you want to study a biological science. But if you’re engineering/CS/math/physics/chemistry, you better take calculus in high school if you can or you’re really hurting your chances.
I’m with you, mamaduck… Every so often one of these over-the-top threads appears on CC and makes me cringe. Our son took algebra 1 in 9th grade(horrors!). Believe it or not he will be heading off to a great LAC this fall… And he will be just fine
“Not sure why the discussion is so focused on calculus”, Because unlike most other advanced high school work, tracking for calculus can begin as early as 4th or 5th grade when parents aren’t thinking about college. Parents who aren’t paying much attention to their school’s curriculum, like the ones described in the first post of this thread, may discover years later that the child isn’t as strong an applicant as they assumed he would be.
@mathyone is right about the tracking. In our district it happens in 5th grade and the parents are often not aware of it.
There is Honors English too, but with English, a student can be re-tracked later much more easily because it is not so sequential.
None of this means that a student who does not have calculus in high school can’t get into a great college, but if the student is a STEM major it will be a bit more difficult.
My son was badly “tracked” in upper elementary; he was in a Montessori school, and not very ‘self-motivated’ in 1st-3rd grades, so he didn’t progress very far (he’d rather read a book and they let him). So in upper level (4th-6th grades), he was not with the more advanced math students. When we moved and he started at a more traditional school for 7th, he had the option to take Algebra I over 2 years (“1A” in 7th and “1B” in 8th). That turned out to be great for him, and he ended up getting As in Calculus in 12th. But our small school only offered Calc AB, not BC. Still, he took the AP test for AB and got a 4, which placed him out of Calc I.
He’s a CS major with a math minor. Elected to repeat Calc I in college, to firm up that foundation. Then Calc II, and Discrete. He’ll take Calc III next fall, and is on track for his program. There’s a different path for everyone.
His cousin, who is very bright but she and her mom are both very “laid back” - the opposite of “tiger mom,” more like “sloth mom”- didn’t realize that Algebra I in 9th would lock her out of Calc as a senior (she came from the same mediocre Montessori school as my son, but moved after 8th grade, and also wanted a refresher of algebra in 9th). She tried to do Geometry on her own the summer after 9th, but didn’t really get it done, so she took it in 10th. Ended up with pre-calc in 12th. But she was a NMF who wanted to apply to top engineering schools, including Harvey Mudd and MIT. Both of them require that freshmen have had Calculus in HS, so she had to take a gap year just to take Calculus at the local CC, so she could apply. (Ended up not getting into either, but she will be graduating from our local flagship in a year with a CS degree and a minor in Classics; the girl is a wiz at Latin and Greek).
So yes, some schools DO require calculus. But most do not.
Yes, they are, relative to all college students. The weaker-at-math college students take “calculus for business majors” or do not take calculus at all due to majoring in subjects where they can avoid calculus.
Repeating calculus in college after a passing AP score is another subject. Sometimes, it is justified due to just barely getting a 3 score and not being confident in being able to go on to more advanced courses. Sometimes, it is grade-grubbing pre-meds thinking that they will get an “easy A” by repeating their AP credit instead of taking a more advanced math course.
I would change the last bit to “if it’s offered to you.” Middle school placement decisions that result in a given student only being able to reach precalculus in 12th grade (i.e. calculus in high school is not available to that student) are not likely to be seen as the same as a student completing precalculus in 11th grade or earlier and then choosing not to take calculus.
Tell that to my sister who graduated suma cum laude in EEE this year. And she actually started in math gasp before Calculus when she entered college. Different strokes for different folks, people.
To me Much2learn it seemed you were assuming that the parents of this kid were clueless based on talking to one parent. My husband, similar to what others have said, would be equally clueless about the 9th grade schedule of his kids and also be hopeful that his bright kids had the potential to get into a top college. He is much less jaded than I am and never comes to CC and so I could see him coming off as naive when discussing this, He is an involved and great dad, but was not a math-science person nor an education geek, so I was the one on top of class levels, math track, and college requirements. If you questioned him the same way your impression of our family’s awareness about courses and colleges would be incorrect.
In our district most reasonably good math students take algebra1 in seventh and eighth grade and move through the sequence to calculus AB by 12th. It would be exceedingly rare for a kid to not take calc as a senior and still be a candidate for an elite college. Kids in the pre-calc math tract certainly go on to good colleges and some may well develop a love of math later. I don’t know what info is given to parents before 7th grade when a kid is not recommended to take algebra 1. Parents here are pretty aware and math tutors do quite well for themselves.
