What @“Snowball City” wrote in #118. Remember, unless affirmative permission is given, the assumption is that every assignment is entirely the student’s own work, with many if not most colleges offering blanket exemptions for direct help from writing centers and—if they have one—math centers, and indirect help from student (repeat: student) study groups. Professional tutoring services are also sometimes exempted if they’re offered through the college itself (and sometimes allowed more broadly for foreign language classes), but that’s only available at a relatively small number of institutions.
I really don’t get why so many people here are saying “No, it’s totally okay!” when so many colleges’ policies explicitly ban such outside help. (Also, it’s kind of weird at me that there’s an implicit insistence that college kids of today need all this extra handholding—in my experience, no, they’re very capable, thank you very much.)
This really does help explain why so many employers are using on site writing tests to screen applicants. I was surprised when I first heard of that but it makes sense. A degree is no guarantee the holder can write basic English.
Parents who wish to provide this service to their kids should have the student email the professor requesting permission to run the paper past the parents. The email should request what parameters there are to this:
proofreading (punctuation and spelling), grammar corrections, paragraph structure corrections, areas needing clarification, areas needing additional content, areas needing content removed, reference resources.
Have I missed anything?
If this is no big deal, then students should be able to easily obtain this explicit permission.
I’m an editor by trade, and if my son wants me to check something he’s written for grammatical errors, I’m absolutely going to do it. How else is he going to learn? English classes are in the rear view mirror at this point (and my standards were always higher than his teachers’, anyway), and, although he should be learning how to write by reading good writers, I know darned well that he’s not doing ANY reading right now that isn’t required for a class.
FWIW, I don’t think he’s ever asked me to check an assignment he had due, 'though I’ve sometimes made comments about assignments he’s shown me after they were turned in. But emails to prospective employers? Heck yes, he’s asked for help . . . and you know what? He’s becoming a darned good writer!
I proofread plenty of my daughter’s papers at their request for grammar, usage, punctuation in both college and for older d in grad school. I couldn’t contribute any comments on content. Even when older d had her first position as an adjunct faculty member she asked me to take a look at her syllabus.
In my own office and I am in involved in publishing/educational sales, my sales manager and other colleagues frequently ask me to proofread materials we are going to distribute for our customers. It never hurts to have a second pair of eyes take a look.
I looked at the Honors Codes of the schools my kids went to, along with where I teach writing. I don’t see anywhere where discussing papers with others and getting advice would be against them. I don’t disagree that there may be a school somewhere that allows no eyes but the student’s or a Writing center to look at the paper, but that is not even a little the norm.
I looked over college papers of my kids maybe three or four times in eight years. Mostly when they were working through something difficult and wanted an educated ear. Their high school English was very uneven, and there was almost no instruction in revision.
I tell my own students that having other eyes on your paper is always a good idea. We do peer revision in class, and if they want to talk over their papers with others–whether parent, roommate, or whoever, then fine. Feedback is how you learn to write well. I certainly don’t expect the kind of email checkoff permission suggested above.
As a professional writer, I would never send anything out without feedback.
Writing a paper is not about the grade. It IS, though, about learning the most during the process so as to do it well when you do it. If a discussion about what makes sense and what is unclear helps a student clarify their thinking, that is hugely more of a learning experience and attainment then falling short. Like I said, it’s not about the grade; it’s about the learning attained. Both my kids are exceptional writers. Both occasionally ask me to look over a professional or personal piece of writing. And it’s reciprocal–sometimes I’ll ask one of them.
PS-- @MaineLonghorn --I love the image of your unfortunate, helplessly helicoptered son somehow traveling to Syrian refugee camps–such a snowflake, lol.
Actually to elaborate on my earlier posts, neither of my daughters are by any means poor writers by any stretch of the imagination. Older d is very competent writer, while younger d is an outstanding writer. In fact after she had committed to her college she was a volunteer at a very large annual spring college event held by six Long Island high schools as a major event on the spring calendar. Seniors work as volunteers while juniors attend and probably close to 50 or more college counselors attend. D met the admissions rep at her soon to be college and when she introduced herself, the college rep told her that her essay was outstanding and particularly memorable. As both are post college and on their way in their respective fields their writing skills have taken them far- in getting interviews for jobs and in their everyday responsibilities in their careers. Younger d turned down at a hip NYC music venue as she had accepted a different opportunity. Part of that interview process involved submitting writing samples for various fund-raising/development projects and when she called to say she had accepted a different offer, here too the woman she was interviewing with told her what outstanding letters she had written and how disappointed she was not to have her continue in the interview process.
It seems a very slippery slope between this and just having someone else write the paper for you. Or the admissions essay. Both of which occur all the time, I realize. I’m not sure where heavy editing stops and rewriting other people’s work begins. Actually it seems the logical conclusion of all those grade school projects which parents ended up doing for their kids. Our school finally put a stop to it when parents just hired professionals to do the projects. I was never sure what the ethical difference was between parents helping or hired craftsmen. In neither case was it the students’ work, which was really the point.
never heard of editing a kid’s college papers before. Nope, wouldnt do it.
however, we have a team of 3 (one HR professional) in our family who help our college kids edit resumes and cover letters, and a few scholarship essays that have been options while in college. That’s just smart I think. And somehow different than papers for grades, right?
@garland, copyediting is specifically cited as an academic infraction at Princeton. It’s used as an example of a violation in the academic integrity section of the handbook. Available online for you.
It is highly advisable to check with one’s own college (or student’s college) before engaging in activity that might result in the student’s suspension. Just a suggestion, as some colleges take the matter very seriously.
I looked up a few honor codes and like @garland I did not see any that said that proof-reading was considered a violation. Here’s an example of the honor code at UW law school. I choose this one because it is very detailed. https://www.law.washington.edu/students/academics/honorcode.aspx
“Sec. 2-204. A student may not offer for credit or other academic or professional benefit work prepared in collaboration with another person unless the student secures the written permission of the instructor or other person in charge in advance of submission. Unless the instructor or other person in charge so states in a written instruction, a student does not prepare work in collaboration with another person if the student merely discusses with such other person matters relevant to the work in question. “Collaboration” as used here requires that the collaborator has made substantive written or dictated contributions to the work submitted. It does not encompass mere proof reading which makes grammatical, spelling, or stylistic recommendations.”
So in this honor code, rewriting someone’s paper or offering content would be a violation. Proof-reading and giving stylistic recommendations are ok.
@dfbdfb I would just ask do you think they are harmed by it or helped by it or neither (or, I would guess, it is case dependent.)
I just checked the one writing class my kid asked me to look at a paper in. It was a 1.5 hr lecture once a week. 50 minute discussion 1xweek. 23 students. 2.1 minutes per student per discussion period x 14 weeks. 30 minutes per student of discussion for the entire semester. There were office hours as well and of course students learn from other students questions, but there is very little personal instructon, which to me is critical in writing.
1 10-12 page paper due in 3 or 4 stages: Thesis and outline kind of progression.
Kid sends me an early draft. I look at it. Ask some questions. Suggestion looking back at some of the source material (which I don’t know anyway). Ask if some of the writing really reflects what they are trying to say. Point out grammatical errors. Suggest some additional avenues of enquiry for fuller research. Remind kid to emblazon thesis on brain (and 3x5 card). Kid does a redraft. Continues on the process of the course.
Now, far as I know there is no prohibition against getting outside input in the class (my kid is such a rule-follower I’d be pretty surprised) and nothing I contributed would have, in my understanding, been considered cheating or plagarism. Might be better if there was a way to footnote “discussion with others.” I guess the student could do a traditional acknowledgment page.
“I would like to thank Dad for comments that greatly improved the manuscript…” I guess input is only useful for PhD and postgrad students…
Oh well. Kid doesn’t want to hear from me anyway. I just make them do too much extra work and thinking… Wouldn’t want that!
So after googling ‘honor code’ and proof-reading, I found a bunch more honor codes that discuss explicitly whether and when having your paper proof-read by peers, parents or outside services is ok. They varied from:
having a paper proof-read by someone else is fine as long as they are not writing the paper.
proof-reading is ok but the student must make the changes. In other words, actually doing the edits on the paper is not ok. A couple editing services said that using track-changes satisfies this requirement.
not ok even to show your paper to another person.
Many said to check with your teacher if you are unsure if having someone (anyone) proofread your paper is ok. One I saw (Middlebury) addressed sharing drafts with your parents. It was discouraged.
That was illuminating. I’d only proof-read/edited the honors thesis for my eldest. I was one of maybe 3 outside people who read it. The others were S’s friends (from hs) who were especially good writers and gave good feedback. For my middle kid, I proof-read her paper over winter break and gave feedback on parts that didn’t make sense. We talked about the paper for about 3 hours on a drive too—well really she was doing all the talking and I was just being a sounding board. I wonder if that’s disallowed at some schools?
A million years ago, before computers, I typed all of my then boyfriend’s (now husband) college papers. I corrected punctuation,spelling, some grammar, etc. when I typed them. I was a better typist (and had a better typewriter). I don’t think that was unethical. I don’t view proofreading a paper for a family member- finding typos and basic grammar issues - as any different.