Parents keep their toddler's gender a secret

seiclan · July 2, 2009, 10:23am

My girlfriend’s son, then almost four years old, when I asked him what he wanted for his upcoming birthday, replied “a barbie”. My friend forbid me from giving her son the doll. Fourteen years later he came out of the closet to his parents (and everyone else).

When my son was two years old I found him enthusiastically pushing his sister’s doll stroller around the house. I thought to myself “how sweet, he is going to be a great daddy someday” and promptly put a doll into the stroller as he ran by me. He stopped abruptly, scowled, grabbed the doll by the hair and tossed her over his shoulder and resumed running around the house pushing the stroller (and making broomm broommm broommm noises)! My house was full of “girl toys” since I had two daughters before him. He never once should any interest in any of them.

Inate.

mrsref · July 2, 2009, 1:14pm

I just thought of another instance where I thought “boys and girls are just different”.

I was coaching peewee soccer (5 yr olds, coed). I asked the kids to get into two lines while I set up for a drill. When I turned my attention back to the group, they had self-segregated into a girls’ line and a boys’ line. The girls were standing quietly in line, waiting. The boys’ line really wasn’t much of a line…they were all rolling around on the ground wrestling with each other.

Coaching that team gave me a new appreciation for elementary school teachers! :)

pugmadkate · July 2, 2009, 3:27pm

“Inate.”

What does that make boys like my son who never showed interest in a gun, ever, inspite of having a father who is Marine and hunts? Who loved baby dolls, tutus and tea sets? Liked order, standing in line and never saw the appeal of rough housing? He was also mad about trains, my god, the money we sunk into tracks and trains. But he was just as likely to be wearing a tutu as overalls when playing trains.

What kind of boy is he? Not the “inate”, normal, natural kind. No, he’s a defective boy. Believe me, we got/still get that message all. the. time.

Our society has made a lot of room for girls to embrace things associated with boys. Tomboys are admired and encouraged. What is the equal of that for boys? We don’t have one (although I once read an article where a mother described her son as a Janegirland I did like that.)

The bottom line is that our culture can understand, for lack of better language to say it in, girls wanting to be boys because boys/men are normal. The idea that boy would want to be a girl is unfathomable because why would a boy/man chose to be associated with the sex that is the variation of the norm/weaker/less than.

We protected our son as long as we could from the fact that most of society believes he’s doing gender wrong. Many of his friends, both boys and girls, did not grow up with that kind of protection, instead their families joined in the deafening chorus.

While my son does not identify as gender neutral, some of his friends do. Yes, some do it through their appearence but for most of them it’s something they only share with people they trust. When there is precious little but pain associated with gender, why would they embrace it? They simply do not identify by gender. Most fill it out on forms, etc but they are working towards not having too. I’ve heard it described as the way forms used to make a person chose one race but now there is box for multi-racial.

Some of these kids are driven by pain, some are driven by strength of belief, some are driven because the idea of having to pick “boy” or “girl” simply does not compute with them.

As I’ve said, I find the reaction to what these parents are doing far, far more interesting than the act itself. Is it any wonder that some younger people are stepping away from gender? I tire of it myself and I’m not conflicted about gender for myself at all.

zoosermom · July 2, 2009, 3:52pm

One of my son’s classmates comes from a family of lovely little girls who wear frilly dresses and girly shoes all the time. Beautiful manners, kind hearts. Their names are along the line of Anthony and Joseph. As a side note, I always want to ask the mother what she’s thinking because the girls are just beautiful but ALWAYS look like a toddler cut their hair with blunt scissors, and the older girls is going to middle school, but that’s another story.

blankmind · July 2, 2009, 3:59pm

To me, the “inate” thing is being who you are born to be. Some will be innately the “natural” boy or girl, and some will be innately a mix.

One of the reasons I love Adam Lambert so much is that he is able to be his innate self, (which probably qualifies under your description as “a defective boy”) and be perfectly happy with himself. Not only that, but he makes people around him feel happy that he is who he is (or maybe that’s just me :)) He makes no apologies for who he is, he just is.

That’s what I mean by learning to be who we are, and just being happy with whatever that is. If you feel like the “typical” girl or boy, why is that not ok? And if you feel gender neutral, or any other mix on the spectrum of male/female, why is that not ok? It’s the idea of hiding your gender that seems pointless to me. Why act like it’s something shameful?

littlegreenmom · July 2, 2009, 4:27pm

Pugmadkate,

You have had a different parenting situation than most of us here on this board. That doesn’t make it wrong, just different. Perhaps the point that many have made is here is that some boys who grow up to be more sensitive, or more aggressive, because of the particular set of genetics they inherited at birth - which is the definition of “innate”.

In both groups - girls and boys - some will be more aggressive or more sensitive, and that won’t predict who will grow up to be gay or lesbian. While some boys will play with “boy” toys, and some will prefer “girl” toys, the point is that we can do whatever we want as parents, and it won’t change who they are, or will ultimately become.

Toy selection will not dictate a person’s future sexual identity. It is just a way that children like to spend their time playing.

If you were to ask any toy manufacturer, the norm is that more boys prefer Hot Wheels, while more girls preferred Barbies. In my house of three kids with 2 boys and 1 girl, they all preferred Hot Wheels. Is this true of all girls? Of all boys? Heavens, no. My daughter preferred the GI Joes, but I think it was because of how all the girls looked the “same” with the clothing and shoes and superficial accessories, and the GI Joes seemed to have more adventures.

I think you are right to say it is easier to raise girls with gender equality. They can be tomboys or girlie girls, or switch back and forth between the two. We give girls the chance to wear dresses and tiaras and play just as hard and aggressively as boys. It kind of isn’t fair.

I have a son that took a vacuum cleaner apart at age 3 1/2, and another one that carried a stuffed animal everywhere and was much calmer and with a sweet disposition as a child. I don’t think one is more of a boy than the other, although society will often identify the more aggressive one as more manly. Couldn’t be further from the truth. It was just how they acted at that age, and still to this day, both still exhibit those same temperamental features.

Okay, S2 doesn’t carry around that toy…but he still has it.

Whatever, or whoever, they become, so much is innate. It is given at birth, and will often dictate much of the child’s future. I don’t know about your son, but if you had tried to change his sexual preference, would you have been able to accomplish that task? I am guessing, no.

The same fact remains that for some kids, the instinct for playing with toys or associating with one gender, or the other, is just as instinctive. Have you ever heard of Michael Gurian? He has written numerous books on the differences in brain biology of boys and girls, and how this relates to learning, sports, physical, emotional and intellectual development.

I am glad that you are “beyond gender”, but I don’t think I can truly comprehend what you mean by that. Do you mean that if someone mistook you for the opposite gender, you would not be offended? Or that you think gender roles or stereotypes are meaningless?

If you were the parent of a heterosexual child, would you feel the same way as you do as the parent of of homosexual child? I am guessing that you couldn’t know what you would do or think, any more than we can.

Most of us feel very connected to our gender, although we may define what is “normal” for that gender in different ways. There are some that feel that they aren’t - and have to wage courageous battles to become who they felt born to be.

Mrs_Weasley · July 2, 2009, 4:49pm

“Our society has made a lot of room for girls to embrace things associated with boys. Tomboys are admired and encouraged. What is the equal of that for boys?”
I’m with you 100%. If girls can wear overalls and baseball hats in kindergarten, why do boys who like twirly skirts need to disguise that by wearing capes?

purpleflurp · July 2, 2009, 5:05pm

pugmadkate posted:
“As I’ve said, I find the reaction to what these parents are doing far, far more interesting than the act itself. Is it any wonder that some younger people are stepping away from gender? I tire of it myself and I’m not conflicted about gender for myself at all.”

I do not know any young people who are “stepping away from gender,” even though I know young people who are straight, gay, bi, etc. If you mean stepping away from gender stereotypes, that is more understandable. But stepping away from gender is akin to stepping away from height, weight, foot size, etc. Most people are born with a discernable gender, and to step away from that is to deny the core of the existence of the person.

Though your son is unique in his own way, I see no reason for the entire world to shun the concept of gender. The fact is that for a majority of people, gender is unambiguous and carries with it innate tendencies and characteristics. In all aspects of life, there are those who fall outside of the norm, but that is no reason for the entire norm to change. It is the norm for a reason. I would guess that Pops’s parents gross manipulations around hiding gender will backfire eventually and that “problems” the parents think they may be avoiding by this experiement will be created by it instead.

Bay · July 2, 2009, 6:54pm

I don’t see any inconsistency, pugmadkate. Your son is innately a gay male. He is not a gay female. What would be the point in hiding/suppressing the fact that he is male (which is apparently what the parents of Pop are doing)?

Btw, many heterosexual boys do not like sports or rough-housing or hunting and they love art and cooking. I do not think most people consider these boys to be “defective.”

epiphany · July 2, 2009, 7:00pm

I cannot agree more with the well-expressed Post 68. And I can see individuals completely not relating to gender roles, but role is not gender in its totality. A role is a construct which is set by society, can be artificial, and often linked to tradition – changing though it may be.

gladmom · July 2, 2009, 7:15pm

The article didn’t say that the parents were trying to get the kid to keep it a secret, just that they weren’t saying anything about it. When my kids were little (I had a girl and boy 3 years apart), we spent lots of time with other families, read tons of books and talked about everything that we saw and experienced. Sometimes, while in the company of others with whom we spent time with regularly, kids wriggled out of diapers, or swimsuits, and ran around until caught and re-dressed by parents. I’m sure that the child and/or his/her friends will be figuring it all out real soon and the kid him/herself will proclaiming his/her gender for all to hear.

Personally, I don’t know how the parents have such discipline not to let a male or female pronoun out occasionally while in public. I would never be able to do that.

cptofthehouse · July 2, 2009, 8:07pm

Now that I have a bunch of grown boys and know many of their friends from when they were little, I have some perspective on how things can pan out. That a boy is “all boy” does not necessarily mean that will continue in adulthood. Nor does a little boy who likes to play with dolls, likes to dress up, acts more like a girl, necessarily grow up to be gay. I’ve seen to many exception to even think about predicting how those kids are going to be when they are adults. Puberty really can make a big difference in how kids turn out.

My older kids had midwest childhoods, whereas the younger ones grew up here on the east coast. I have not heard or seen any issues with boys who are not as “boyish” as the norm at my youngest son’s school which is an all boys’ catholic school. A wide range of behaviors is supported. I am glad for this. I hope that this is the trend that will continue.

cptofthehouse · July 2, 2009, 8:11pm

Purple, I know some kids who want to be genderless. Whether this is because they are currently unsure about their sexuality as gay, bi, straight, I don’t know. They want to be androgynous for right now. Don’t know if the there even has to be a relationship between sexuality and gender.

pugmadkate · July 2, 2009, 8:41pm

First, the fact that my kid was not a typical boy does not mean he was destined to grow up to be gay. That that assumption is still made is just one indicator of how very far we have to go concerning all things gender and sexuality.

Keeping something private, or within a family, is not the same as hiding/suppressing. No one is entitled to know the gender of a baby/toddler. Or at least not any more entitled than the parents of that child asking the inquiring adult for their weight/height.

People keep insisting this will be harmful to Pop based on…nothing. I cannot help but also note that the fact that having ones gender know can be very painful to children is not coming up either.

blankmind, It’s not my definition. I don’t believe my son defective at all. Nor do I believe that the fact that so many boys reportedly chew their toast into the shape of a gun to be inate behavior for boys. There is clearly some socialization going on at that point unless these families just happen to live where guns grow in the yard.

lgm, I’m sure it will not suprise you that I find the fact that there are far more differences within the genders than between them to be more convincing that the alleged biological causes of gendered behavior that fits into our preconcieved notions. As a woman, I come to the idea of a woman’s nature being biological (ie natural) with a huge amount of skeptism.

It would not offend me at all if someone mistook me for a man. I happen to have some experience in that area being 5’10" and I used to sport very short hair. It truly did not bother me, why would it?

I certainly do not think that the gender roles our society assigns are meaningless. In fact, I think they are quite powerful and, for the most part, harmful. They are especially harmful to women but men are harmed by them as well and, of course, those that identify as neither or both are given the hardest time in our society.

As for my feelings, since I grew up with feminists, gay family and friends, my ideas about sexuality and gender have never been the culturally popular ones.

I’m really not sure that “most of us” feel connected to our gender. We’re taught from birth that it’s the core of who we are but is it really? I suppose if one’s adult experience happens to match with what society expects of that gender, it might be. For a lot of people, part of adulthood is realizing that what they were taught was either wrong or woefully incomplete.

I completely disagree. The things that make up the core of my existence are things like love, compassion and so on. I’m very comfortable with my gender but it’s no more the core my existence than my height. I think that’s a freedom that comes with growing up in a society that is softening the rigid boundaries of gender.

Mrs_Weasley · July 2, 2009, 10:03pm

pugmadkate, Like you, I hope my core existence is more meaningful than merely my gender, my physical appearance.

I once heard an adult (who wasn’t the parent of the child in question) lecture a 3-year old to differentiate for the child whether the child would grow up to be a mom or a dad. How sad. The 3-year old didn’t give a flip about genders and was really more focused on the different roles and behaviors each parent exhibited around the house–roles and behaviors that are often unique from one household to another.

purpleflurp · July 2, 2009, 10:51pm

“Purple, I know some kids who want to be genderless. Whether this is because they are currently unsure about their sexuality as gay, bi, straight, I don’t know.”

This may be a difference in semantics then. If by “genderless” you mean “androgynous” then I see what these kids are trying to do. But, trust me, they are not (and never will be) “genderless.” And as DonnaL pointed out on another thread, gender and sexual orientation are two very different things.

Pops’s parents are having to jump through many unnatural hoops to carry out their bizarre experiment. That should tell you something.

How would someone who was the victim of a crime feel if s/he were unable to identify the perpetrator by gender? Sorry, but gender is an identifying characteristic, even if it doesn’t fully define something. To pretend otherwise is just ridiculous.

toblin · July 2, 2009, 11:55pm

I have a suspicion as to the parents motives. I went to college in the '70’s when it was all the rage amongst trendy psychologists (sp) to insist that there was no substantial difference between girls and boys except for the way they were raised.

Today I wonder how many billions of dollars have been spent since by now middle aged men as a result of that professionally endorsed insanity.

jellxtoxthexo · July 3, 2009, 12:14am

"His gender? Is that a guess or just using the default gender? Why not ‘their gender.’ "

Technically, “their” is plural, and improper English when talking about something singular. :)

You can’t deny your gender. There are physical, emotional, and social differences- besides the obvious physical, the brains of different genders are very different, leading men and women to act in different ways. The two halves of a woman’s brain, for example, are better connected, and this results in her sensitivity to emotion and the ability to excel in language. The man’s brain, on the other hand, and its physical differences enable him to perform more mathematics and logic-based activities.

You can’t “gender-neutralize” your brain or your body.

IMHO, these parents are just setting the poor child up for identity confusion in the future. The kid’s never going to get a date to the prom or a boyfriend/girlfriend- who wants to risk asking the gender-neutral kid in fear that he/she might be the same sex as you? Will this gender-neutrality affect how other people view him/her in other ways, such as discrimination in the job field? Do you really want to hire someone with an unknown gender to work at Victoria’s Secret?

pugmadkate · July 3, 2009, 12:35am

Please list these many unnatural hoops Pop’s parents are jumping through.

Of course, I don’t see keeping something private as a “bizarre experiment.” Has our reality tv culture impacted our thinking so much that now declining to offer information asked for is bizarre? I fear that may be so.

Of course you can.

First, if you are speaking of biology, you are speaking of sex not gender. Second, they are not “very” different. That idea is about as current and correct as the idea that we only use a small portion of our brains.

To sum it up, so far we have inability to identify Pop should Pop grow up to be a criminal, perhaps driven to a life a crime by an inability to get a prom date.

These are real problems for toddlers?

jellxtoxthexo · July 3, 2009, 12:39am

There are physical differences in the male and female brains that affect the way they react to different stimuli. The physical differences are part of the sex, the differences they cause are part of the gender, and neither one can be denied, unless you’re making a conscious effort to not conform to what we see as societal expectations.

Parents keep their toddler's gender a secret

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