<p>3 girls we are in southern New England-how she arrived at Stanford is anyone’s guess! I think she wants to go to California and that is one of the famous and best California schools.</p>
<p>I doubt she will even apply when all is said and done! :)</p>
<p>Pepper, that’s funny. We lived in southern New England until recently and when my older girls were in high school there everyone wanted to go to Yale or Brown. Now we are in California and Stanford is the “it” school. I wondered if it was a regional thing but maybe not.</p>
<p>3girls3cats- d1’s math prof referred to AP Calc BC as " baby math" : )</p>
<p>quote from Sally22’s article:
</p>
<p>Really? </p>
<p>My D1 has 24.5 hours/week of class, including labs. She tries to attend office hours and/or guided study sessions on top of that. She is also in two EC/service activities related to her major. One meets 3 evenings per week (open-ended work meetings); the other has a mandatory 1hr weekly meeting and all-day work sessions on the weekend (they’re optional, but lots of peer pressure to attend and D says they’re fun). She ignores my exhortions to sleep 7~8 hours, and I seriously doubt that she is spending much time on grooming. She does like to loiter over dinner with friends, but other than that she’s pretty much working flat out.</p>
<p>On the other hand, she maintains that this schedule is less stressful than HS because she has more control over what classes to take and when to work. </p>
<p>With regards to letting HS kids make their own choices – especially ones that might later close off options – it’s really hard to know when to push and when to to back off. We all want our kids to excel, or at least to get off the couch and try something new. But they need some navel-gazing time, too.</p>
<p>It’s especially hard when they’re younger (freshmen/sophomores) and might not have a thorough understanding of the long-term ramifications. On the one hand, science has proven that their fore-brains aren’t fully developed and they aren’t fully capable of making reasoned decisions. On the other hand, pushing too much can trigger defiance, stress, and burnout. (Have y’all seen [Race</a> to Nowhere](<a href=“http://www.racetonowhere.com/]Race”>http://www.racetonowhere.com/)??) No-one wants that! Not for our own kids individually, and not for all of our kids all together.</p>
<p>So hard to know what to do…</p>
<p>Good discussion here. </p>
<p>
I wonder based on the results of the studies, what is the age? </p>
<p>I agree pushing too hard might backfire. Yet we should guide them and some pushing is necessary, so that 5 years from now they won’t have much to regret. I keep telling my kids if they slack off too much now, they’ll limit their choices of what they can do in their life. Many adults have had that experience. Then they blame things in the society. We all hate this, but in a way, if there is anybody other than themselves that should be blamed, it’s their parents,i because they are young, and parents are supposed to guide them to adulthood by giving them good advice. </p>
<p>Happily I see the difference between a 12 year old and a 15 year old in my household, comparing two kids, and comparing one same kid at different ages.</p>
<p>Good points made here!!</p>
<p>
Wow I didn’t know that!
What’s the difference between calc AB and calc BC? I think D’s school offers calc AB, and nobody ever did well in the national exam - not something to look forward to. She is taking AP calc next year.</p>
<p>I think the “baby-ness” of Calc BC depends on the school and the teacher. But most classes are really plug and chug classes – not a lot of math going on. (Math means rigorous proofs.) Not that it’s not useful, particularly for the future engineers, who don’t really care whether the concepts are built up with rigorous proofs – just give me the freaking formula. But it’s not math.</p>
<p>I wholeheartedly agree that it is our job as parents to guide our children. And yes, sometimes that means pushing. If I’d completely let go with my eldest, she’d have stopped going to school entirely and would have slept 'til noon on a regular basis. I don’t think, however, that anyone on this forum really has to worry that bad choices made now will forever limit future options. I used to believe this myself and I think it’s a very harmful thought process and one that’s far too easy to adopt. We see all these amazing, polished kids around us and worry that our kids can’t keep up. </p>
<p>For one thing, there’s no one sure path to a successful and happy future. My brilliant nephew did poorly in high school, mainly by failing to turn in homework or complete work at all. He pulled it together enough in his senior year with stellar test scores and some excellent grades in math to get into a good college. He did not do at all well his first year of school, then, on his own, found his path and has had straight A’s since. He found internships in his area of interest and is starting an amazing job after graduation. My daughter found that she hated her first college. She took time off, worked for a semester, and then transferred to a different school. She found internships in her field of interest throughout her schooling and was immediately employed in her very competitive field after graduation. She’s already distinguished herself. In fact, some of the qualities that didn’t work in high school are almost necessary to succeed in this job. And I know people, both online and in real life, who have kids who flailed and then moved on to be extremely successful. My sincere and hard won belief is that kids need to grow into themselves and with parental support (and some gentle nudging) they will. </p>
<p>The second question is what choices are being limited? Admission to an uber selective school? A merit scholarship or free ride at the state school? For the former, I don’t know that it’s worth worrying about at all. It’s a lottery even with all the right boxes checked. By pushing too hard you risk affecting your future relationship with your child and if the child doesn’t get into the reach school, what was the point? The merit scholarships are tougher of course because they can mean the difference between college and no college but even there, what we found was that the smart but imperfect kid still had lots of choices.</p>
<p>What if the kid gets into the uber reach school? Some kids thrive, others are lost. If there’s a particular program, it’s one thing. But if it’s the name and supposed quality of the school, I’m skeptical that it’s always the right option. One extremely impressive girl we know chose an LAC over one of the biggest name schools. She’s being groomed for a competitive graduate scholarship. She would have been one of many at the other school and would not have had the special attention she is getting now. My D 15 is so quiet and so nonaggressive that I can’t imagine her thriving in a place populated with “look at me!” kids. I’m not dissing the tippy top schools, I’m just observing that the big name doesn’t always translate to (1) the best quality education or (2) the best fit for the individual kid.</p>
<p>Last point: I reemphasize that pushing too hard may harm your relationship with your child for years to come. We are still on tentative ground with our 23 year old who blames us for pushing too hard in high school. She’s grown up a great deal since those days but she still remembers a very unhappy home life when she was in high school. She says that the constant refrain was that she was ruining her future by failing to study, perform, etc. What I remember is trying not to overreact, wringing my hands that this very smart girl was never going to be recognized as a very smart girl in her college applications, and walking around with my heart in my throat most of the time. In my mind, I wasn’t pushing too hard, in hers, H and I were relentless. Maybe we couldn’t have avoided the tension. I don’t know. I just wish that someone had scheduled an intervention and told me not to buy into the hype that one wrong step now would preclude long term success.</p>
<p>Nice post 3girls3cats!</p>
<p>Ijust drive- my comment wasn’t a reflection on the teaching of BC Calc at high school more that when you move on to college Math, HS Math is really baby steps. My D1 is a Math major. D1 took Calc AB because the BC wouldn’t fit into her schedule.</p>
<p>We had our counseling meeting yesterday. We have such a sweet counselor. She must have 25+ years experience and is such a wealth of knowledge. I hope she doesn’t retire before D2 graduates. She was very positive with softball girl and heaped praise on her for her transcript. It is great when a counselor " gets it" - not always our experience. The only thing that irked me was when we started talking about colleges. She threw out a couple of expensive LAC’s , Emory being one. I made the comment that being older and wiser Emory and similar wouldn’t come up with enough merit money to make it feasible for undergrad. She came back with, well d1 is on a free ride I am sure mom and dad can afford it. I had to smile nicely at that one and move on. D2 is well aware of our views of paying $50K /year for an undergrad especially when she is thinking of med school.</p>
<p>Our school system is in such a mess just now. We are on probation from SACs. School board is a shambles. I think they Superintendent is about to resign. So much corruption.
The next 2 years can’t pass quick enough. D2 will take the SAT in spring in case she needs to take some classes at community college in the fall. Strict rules on 20+ students in each class before it can make… so classes like AP Calc etc may be in jeopardy. The only think is that we have a rising population so there are now more kids in each grade.
We have a great HS, it is the county that stinks so much.</p>
<p>I think most kids get a huge shock when then enter a college math class, particularly if it’s a class for math majors. It’s very different from what most kids get in high school.</p>
<p>
I’m sure. But what about classes for, say, engineering? </p>
<p>Yes pushing too much will cause problem. Pushing to a certain degree, with good communication, is a good idea though. I’ve already heard many kids, at my daughter’s age, (15 or so) complaining that their parents didn’t push them when they were young and didn’t know better. One of my daughter’s friend said she really wished her parents pushed her in music. She learned the piano when she was young. Then she felt it was too much work and rebelled. The parents give in. So she quit when she was about 8 or 9. Now she says to her parents - why did you let me quit?! I wish you didn’t. “I was just a dumb kid!” I laugh every time I think about it. several other friends of D’s have the some kind of complaints about their parents not pushing them academically. I thought to myself (jk) it’s a lose-lose situation.</p>
<p>I’m glad though that D. hears things like this from her friends. :)</p>
<p>Maxwell - Doesn’t everyone wish their parents had made them stick with piano? LOL You’re right about it being a no win situation. </p>
<p>I’m sure all colleges are different, but where my two math major boys go to school, there are three track for the calculus sequence - and honors one like IJustDrive is talking about, one for students who will use the calc as a tool, like engineers, and a sequence that breaks up Calc I and Calc II into 3 semesters for a slower course. My oldest hadn’t had proof based math in HS and took the honors Calc course that about half the students drop by Thanksgiving (the school makes it extremely easy to drop down to the next level). He fell in love with it and by a month in was calling home to say he was switching to being a straight math major (instead of a double major). Now he’s a junior taking 5 math classes this semester.</p>
<p>*Quote:
science has proven that their fore-brains aren’t fully developed and they aren’t fully capable of making reasoned decisions.
I wonder based on the results of the studies, what is the age? *</p>
<p>herandhisMom, scientists believe the pre-frontal cortex is not fully developed until 25. (!!)</p>
<p>The prefrontal cortex, the part of the frontal lobes lying just behind the forehead, is often referred to as the “CEO of the brain.” This brain region is responsible for cognitive analysis and abstract thought, and the moderation of “correct” behavior in social situations. The prefrontal cortex takes in information from all of the senses and orchestrates thoughts and actions to achieve specific goals.1,2
**
The prefrontal cortex is one of the last regions of the brain to reach maturation. This delay may help to explain why some adolescents act the way they do. The so-called “executive functions” of the human prefrontal cortex include:</p>
<pre><code>Focusing attention
Organizing thoughts and problem solving
Foreseeing and weighing possible consequences of behavior
Considering the future and making predictions
Forming strategies and planning
Ability to balance short-term rewards with long term goals
Shifting/adjusting behavior when situations change
Impulse control and delaying gratification
Modulation of intense emotions
Inhibiting inappropriate behavior and initiating appropriate behavior
Simultaneously considering multiple streams of information when faced with complex and challenging information
</code></pre>
<p>This brain region gives an individual the capacity to exercise “good judgment” when presented with difficult life situations. Brain research indicating that brain development is not complete until near the age of 25, refers specifically to the development of the prefrontal cortex.**</p>
<p>[Maturation</a> of the Prefrontal Cortex](<a href=“Reproductive Health | HHS Office of Population Affairs”>Reproductive Health | HHS Office of Population Affairs)</p>
<p>
My goodness we really need to have some patience here. 
but on the other hand, just recall how we did when we were that age. We probably shouldn’t be too discouraged. </p>
<p>However, these days, kids are having some extra challenges - or maybe I should say, different kind of challenges. Internet is part of the reason, and competitions are more serious these days, for variety of reasons.</p>
<p>@PN, thanks for sharing your kids’ experiences in math. A couple of my D’s friends are talking about majoring in math in college. This is something they need to be prepared for - proofs. My D is good at high school math. Doesn’t want to even do science in college. won’t get into proofs. :)</p>
<p>*Quote:
scientists believe the pre-frontal cortex is not fully developed until 25.
My goodness we really need to have some patience here. *</p>
<p>Yes, I was thinking no way am I going to make it that long. ;)</p>
<p>^^^ That’s why we send them away to college. ;)</p>
<p>Maxwellequations – sounds like your D should consider accounting, actuary, or applied math…</p>
<p>Patience is definitely not my strong suit!</p>
<p>I apologize if I’m starting to sound shrill, I definitely tend to get on my soapbox about this issue. I think there is a difference between making kids stick with an instrument and even with practicing vs. insisting they play with the most elite youth symphony and practice for hours each day. I also think that by the time a child reaches high school, the decision as to whether to continue playing piano or taking a harder class or joining the Model UN is something that ultimately resides with the teenager, not the parent. (Even Amy Chua-Rubenfeld agrees with me on that one. 
) Kids will always come back and tell you that you should have pushed harder or that you pushed too hard or both. Maxwellequations, you are so right that you can’t win. It’s a delicate balance always and of course it varies with each kid. My own feeling is that you, as the parent, has to be the one to keep hold of the bigger picture and maintain perspective.</p>
<p>Here’s an example of what I mean: my very anxious D had major exams in every subject this past week. She said yesterday that she wished she’d get the results quickly so that she wouldn’t have to worry about them over her upcoming winter break. She is certain she didn’t do well. (I’d say that she’s certain she hasn’t done well about 85% of the time.) I’m no saint and I often get carried right into her obsessive worry but yesterday I restrained myself in time and said instead: “You are a great kid who works hard and cares about her work. Whether you did well or not, this is not something to worry about. I could not ask for a better daughter and I am proud of you regardless of the test results.” She visibly relaxed. It was almost like you could see the weight coming off her shoulders.</p>
<p>Good for you, 3girls! So glad your message got through to her!</p>
<p>Been out for a awhile. Went to visit my parents over the weekend and came back with the flu. And yes, I had the flu shot :(</p>
<p>Some great posts here on knowing the right way to “manage” kids (or not). I confess I’ve made lots of mistakes but luckily neither D13 or S15 are showing any damage (yet). They are just such different personalities that I don’t think anything I learned from #1 is applicable to #2! But I guess recognizing that is at least a step in the right direction. </p>
<p>S is pretty relaxed these days. Doesn’t seem to have much homework. Last semester he had a B the whole time until the very end when he pulled to up to an A- (barely) and he’s right back there again. But he doesn’t seem as worried about it this time around and that’s a good thing because grades really stress him more than they probably should.</p>
<p>And yes, in moments of insanity, I wish my parents hadn’t let me quit piano but then those moments pass and I realize that there was NO WAY I was going to cooperate. :rolleyes:</p>