I had a dad recently of a high stat student, who insisted to me that merit at Michigan was likely for the OOS. “But that is what they told us…” he said, and I just sighed.
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Edit: By the way, none of the post below addressed the other issue of encouraging more disadvantaged kids to submit what actually are good test scores for them. That, uh, is not such an issue at our HS, but I completely agree with these colleges it is frustrating more such kids are not at least hearing that basic message. End edit.
Thinking back on our counselors, I think at least they sorta tried. They tried encouraging everyone to at least TRY to get a high test score, and only to plan to go test optional if it was clear that wasn’t going to work. They shared our scattergrams on SCOIR, and it certainly didn’t take me long to realize there were certain colleges that very clearly expected certain test scores from our unhooked applicants. And generally, I know in private counseling sessions they would strongly encourage kids to make sure to consider lots of colleges where they would be strong candidates based on just their grades or grades+scores given their experience with those colleges.
But then I can also see in SCOIR we still get lots of kids applying to very selective colleges well outside the plausible admit range, and predictably almost none of those kids get admitted (so few that I suspect the exceptions are likely all hooked).
So maybe our counselors could be even more pushy–I can’t say for sure that is wrong. But I can also understand why they might feel they could only productively take it so far, and then would stop if it just wasn’t working.
And that is just one high school, of course. Still, without at all insisting every counselor in the country is doing the best they could be doing, I kinda think the only way counselors are going to have much chance of eliminating more of those “what were you thinking?” applications will be if the colleges arm them with something very unmistakable and authoritative to show these kids/parents.
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I don’t think they are carefully reviewing the qualified applicants. The primary review at most schools is something like six minutes. A lot of the later class shaping is based on demographics, not the individual applications. Some schools, like Vandy, are using software for these shaping decisions. When there are more qualified applicants than spots, schools can do this without sacrificing overall class quality.
We came from a private k-8 and I know the keeping families happy is a piece.
Not the same, but she was telling me they are adding a new placement test for some courses as so many aren’t ready and it’s more work for teachers when kids need to move classes a month in. Admin was flooded with complaints and angry phone calls about the new placement test. Sometimes people just don’t want to hear what they need to hear and schools walk a tight line on appeasing families and doing what needs to be done.
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Today I read this in Chronicle of Higher Education “Nearly every public flagship enrolled a smaller share of freshmen from within their states in 2022 than they did two decades earlier…”
And then S24 wakes up to an invite to a pretty fancy meet and greet at a fine dining restaurant in our area (SoCal) for Rutgers admitted students, this is in addition to the 1:1 meeting they are setting up. I don’t blame them for going after those OOS $$, I can hear my younger self singing ‘Don’t hate the player, hate the game.’
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It is a really big problem in general, of course–finding someone you can rely on to tell you important things you don’t want to hear because they trust it won’t have negative consequences for them if they do. Again just reflecting on some of our experiences and things we heard about, I think maybe some of the kids/parents signaled early on we were happy to get blunt assessments because we were open to lots of different possible strategies and in fact outcomes. And so I felt like S24 got good guidance. But I am not sure that was the dynamic with all the kids/parents.
I do not want to emphasize, though, that what is happening at our HS is not a big societal issue. Like, some pointless applications to Ivies from a kid who is still going to end up at a state flagship or such may be adding noise to a system which could use more clarity, but that is a small thing compared to kids who might not end up at a four-year college at all because they never got good advice about where they might well qualify for all the financial aid they would need.
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More transparency from schools could make a huge difference. I post this page from Wes on here all the time: Class Profile, Admission & Aid - Wesleyan University
Look how much information they provide! Why doesn’t everyone do this? Providing this information clearly is not starving them of applicants; they have a 16% admission rate.
Schools have to collect and publish this sort of info for their CDSs; all they have to do is turn it into something more easily navigable and user-friendly. Wes has given them a template. Everyone should do this! Why don’t they? Why are the deans of Yale and Dartmouth saying what they’re saying on niche podcasts but not publishing this information for all applicants to see? Why force applicants to parse oblique statements about TO? Just tell them what portion of admitted students submitted scores!
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One of my best friends is a college counselor at a private high school. She has told me that trying to advise families often feels like a lose-lose proposition. If she tries to politely tell a student/family that a school is a hard reach/they are unlikely to get in, they are upset that she isn’t supportive enough/doesn’t believe in them. If she says or does anything to make them think they will get into a school that later rejects them, they feel she mislead them. There was a big blow up this year because a top student dropped an important AP class, and the college counselor told the student they needed to inform the school and that the switch might reduce the student’s perceived rigor. Family interpreted this as counselor not being supportive. And she has told me many similar stories. So, yes, I agree that ideally counselors could steer students to great fits, academic and otherwise, I am not sure if some students and families appreciate the input.
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Actually too much data 
They need more spacing.
But I was looking for - and maybe I just missed - was acceptance rates for the 58% that submitted and the 42% that didn’t.
That’s what all schools should provide.
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We are seeing a lot of this in our BS for math, even with placement testing.
May I know the name of the BS?
And frankly, if all that is happening is flagships are trading some kids among each other, where those kids prefer something about a different flagship than their own and their families are willing to pay for the difference, then really everyone wins. Including the kids who stay in-state and benefit from the cross-subsidy.
Of course some kids/parents in some states feel like they are getting robbed of spots by those OOS enrollments, but . . . I am not sure that is so true all the time. Like, if you imagine not just your state flagship stops enrolling so many OOS, but EVERY state flagship does that too, then a bunch more kids from your state who went OOS somewhere in the current system might show back up again in your state system. The net effect would not necessarily be neutral, but it is not a simple hypothetical when you really think about it.
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58% of all admitted students submitted scores. 42% of all admitted students did not submit scores.
Social media > educated counselors
“In recent years, the Internet has popularized what is called the “shotgunning” method — that is, applying to many elite schools at once in hopes that at least one school will accept you. Essentially, “shotgunners” believe that because they have no insight, year to year, into the exact mix of qualities and skills a school is looking for, they might as well spread out their options in the interest of finding one singular “match” school.”
I read it as 42% of admitted students applied TO. What that does not show is how many applied TO overall. Also interesting that 1/2 the admitted students came from private school considering only 8% of students in this country attend private HS.
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The issue is not the BS, it’s the fact that the kids are coming in with big gaps (despite good grades) in foundational knowledge and that sometimes doesn’t become apparent well into the school year.
The school has been very good about finding the right class for the student, without penalty. Still, it’s disruptive and not ideal. Parents are always open to the idea that their kid isn’t actually ready for x level even though they technically already completed the prerequisite, so that delays the whole process. This was not an issue before COVID. It’s pretty obvious that the pandemic did a number in the progression of many students. Particularly apparent in class ‘26 and ‘27.
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I thought Bucknell was very transparent with their TO numbers. They have on their info sheets that TO kids have a 26% overall acceptance rate. Now, what they don’t do is break it down between Engineering, Business, and A&S, which have a big discrepancy in acceptance rates.
I note what is really unusual about that is the data for admits, not just enrollees. Lots of colleges have information available about enrollees, but that is an important step away from admits when (like most colleges) you do not have a very high yield.
That said, what I would say is still vitally missing from all that is what are sometimes called cross-tabs. So, for example, what do test scores (including test-optional) look like for ED admits versus RD admits? International admits versus domestic admits? FG admits versus not-FG admits? Men versus women? ED recruited athlete or legacy versus ED not recruited athlete or legacy? And so on.
The problem, of course, is every individual is like that–some combination of specific attributes. And that is what we want to really know–what does a kid like this specific individual kid usually need in terms of tests (or not) to get admitted to Wesleyan?
But for now, none of these colleges are really giving us that sort of information.
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Not what I’m asking.
I’m asking - of those 58% who submitted, what was the acceptance rate. For example, 20%.
For those 42% that didn’t, what was the acceptance rate - maybe 10%.
These schools are not showing people the impact of submitting a score. Yes, you can surmise that if 58% are submitting, you have better odds - but what truly are those odds?
If they were like this - just listed about Bucknell:
They have on their info sheets that TO kids have a 26% overall acceptance rate. but for TO and non-TO.
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My S20, when he was first in his own off campus place, texted to ask whether spaghetti sauce that had been opened should have been refrigerated. Complete with photo of moldy jar. Um, you’ve seen that sauce in the fridge at home? No? Luckily he lived and learned.
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