And also move the scholarship applications and prescreen due dates to after the ED announcements. The only schools we paid for (except the ED school) were to make sure he was able to apply for scholarships or music prescreens. Really annoying.
I know the Harvard REA thing is nuts. They accept a tiny number, reject a tiny number and defer the vast majority - only to reject almost all of them. It doesnât seem like a very good system.
And they restrict kids from applying anywhere else EA! So you lock the kids into one EA choice and then donât even give them the decency of a straight answer. Harvard REA is not worth it unless youâre recruited athlete or legacy or just overall phenom. It absolutely doesnât offer any advantage as some think. (we didnât do this, just an outsider viewpoint)
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Many of them really canât. The good publics for engineering and CS (UIUC, Purdue, Maryland, GaTech, Michigan, Wisconsin, Washington, etc.) get over 40,000 applications by November 1. Evaluating all of them by December 31 is a challenge.
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I know there are reasons that many canât, but that fact is adding to the number of apps that some kids feel compelled to submit. There really are no easy answers that meet everyoneâs needs - capping the number of apps on the common app at 10 would help but what about merit seekers? test required would help but what about attracting kids from under resourced backgrounds?
They used to until COVID
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I am quite sure the enrolled students at Northeastern are not getting less qualified. On the other hand, the data I have seen indicates they are not getting radically more qualified either, despite the rise in application volumes.
So certainly those are relevant factors. The underlying data is getting a little old at this point, but I think this is still helpful background:
Factors correlated with increases in applications per applicant include:
Private high school
ED applier
Selective college applier
Private college applier
Being in the Northeast
International
A lot of that can be seen as rational behavior in response to what is happening with admissions at relevant colleges, but that behavior is then causing a feedback loop.
Another of the interesting results was this combination:
High test score
No test score
Like, here is a really interesting quote:
Over the last two years, the number of applications per student grew fastest among students who did not submit scores and those who reported scores of 1400 or more.
Also an interesting combination:
Fee waivers
Not needing low in-state tuition
Not entirely mutually-exclusive, but not indicative of a single cohesive group driving this effect either (for that matter, being from the Northeast and International were also contrast groups).
Finally, I also note special application requirements were associated with MORE applicationsâthe theory is that happened just because they were more selective colleges and those saw higher increases in applications, but it underscores how those are not a very effective deterrent.
Long story short, I should have known I was doomed with my S24âhe had too many of these factors. Not all, but I guess that is why he was âonlyâ 15 and not 20+ . . . .
But given all these different factors, there are lots of different combinations, and not all of them necessarily imply the applicant is well-qualified everywhere they are applying. Like, it is one thing if an applicant defensively goes from 3-4 targets to 4-5 targets. It is another if an applicant optimistically goes from 3-4 hard reaches to 4-5 hard reaches. And it is still another if an applicant pointlessly goes from 0 to 1 unlikelies to 2 to 3 unlikelies. But all these scenarios are potentially consistent with some combination of many of these factors.
And as a final thought, here is a stark statement from the Yale Admissions Podcast, in the context of announcing their new initial review process (something others have also announced doing in some way, where they are using some procedure to do an initial sort, and only the more promising ones get a traditional slower read, and others just get quick look):
Iâll say it very plainly. We have more uncompetitive and sort of unqualified applicants in our first-year admissions process now than we did not even all that long ago.
So I would personally guess that is not just true at Yale, it is widely true, that they deem at least a substantial portion of the increase in applications as coming from not competitive applicants. Not necessarily all, but definitely enough that they are actually reacting by changing their admissions procedures.
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This. Counselors need to educate kids better on what range of scores should be submitted. Students wrongly assume if itâs not 1500+ then they shouldnât submit their score. So colleges test scores on admitted students is skewing so high now because itâs either 1550+ or bust. I see kids who have 1480, 1390, even 1500 going TO because they assume itâs going to hurt them.
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I would love to see system where your in-state flagship had to give an actual yes/no decision before our apps are due, maybe even before ED one apps are due. How many kids with their own state flagship answer in hand would reduce applications? Many schools know the in state percentage of the class they want. Why not look at that pool early?
We are in Illinois. UIUC knows every school in the state. And they actually do a really good job of yes/no (not deferring) in EA, but not until the end of January. What if they just told the in-state kids in October? S24 was rejected from a highly rejective major there. That wouldâve been nice to know several months earlier and probably would have changed his list. If he had gotten in, he would have only applied to one or two other schools.
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Maybe colleges should stop sending free app waivers or priority no essay apps or late free we want you to kids who never expressed interest and had little chance of getting in.
Hello Chicago and WUSTL.
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And northeastern. S24 got a fee waiver, they have no essay(except the super secret music supplement essay), so why not apply?
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Looking at you California UCs! I wish they even offered an EA option. Maybe even an EA option just for in-state so these kids who only want a UC school anyways, will know early if they need to apply elsewhere. That will absolutely lower the application numbers. And a decision thatâs actually considered early, like DecemberâŠhow is a decision in late January-February considered early?
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Yeah, the Yale and Dartmouth Deans made it really clear that some people are hurting themselves by not submitting test scores even when they are not in their normal range.
That saidâI think there is some tough talk that some people do not necessarily love hearing, and no one really wants to be the one to tell them. Namely something like this: if you are unhooked, from an advantaged background and secondary school, and so on, and you have very good grades but do not have a high test score to submit, you may not have a real chance at some of these highly selective colleges.
Meaning for you, there is NO good answer to the submit/donât submit question. Submit a lower test score than they usually expect from applicants like you? Very likely wonât work. Donât submit a test score? Also very likely wonât work.
The message is getting out a bit, more and more people are starting to realize when test optional is maybe not so optional for everyone. But without the colleges just ripping the lid off and making it more clear exactly who does or does not need what sorts of scores, everyone else is still speculating, reading between the lines, trying to draw statistical inferences . . . while the colleges actually know.
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Pennsylvania does not get a lot of praise for its higher education system, but this is one thing it is actually good at. If you get in your applications to Pitt and/or Penn State early enough, you will very likely have a real answer well in time to inform the rest of your applicationsâincluding in many cases even before early deadlines.
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And I think that with the enrollment drop, any school that is not in the top 10 thinks it canât count on the next ten years to give it a stable pool of applicants with stable credential ranges, etc. So the schools are not going to try to âfixâ the uncertainty for the students, because they feel it themselves.
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100% agree and it blows my mind school counselors arenât sending this message more clearly to the populations that really need to be submitting. They deserve all the information so they can make an informed decision.
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Iâm not sure most public school counselors have any idea. Many are dealing just with state flagships, local regional and privates.
Most donât have experience or ties to the most selective.
Most are guiding in group form, not individual.
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I also think a lot of families do not understand the costs and that many colleges will not meet need - and for the popular publics, end up costing ALOT of money for OOS kids.
We have a lot of middle class/upper middle class families in our area who assume merit and/or robust FA from selective schools. And even if Johnny gets a 15K merit from fill-in-the-blank school, the COA is still close to 60-70K, out of reach of most families. Then maybe the family gets an institutional grant, another 20K. Now down to 50K. Still a no go.
Those kids always end up at our flagship school or something nearby that is much more affordable.
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Until we toured Georgetown, I had no idea some schools offer no merit. As a full pay family, that night in the hotel the list was drastically reduced.
My first kid had schools like WUSTL and Vandy - elite names but yep had merit. Not til my second kid did I realize this.
I have a good friend in cc department at a popular private in our resourced area. They do not give this message, they need to be. I see it in our state school results and who gets deferred. One of the reasons some pay private is for the additional help on college and more individual attention, I am telling her stuff from my college confidential education.