Parents of the HS Class of 2024 (Part 1)

Parents of HS Class of 20xx
9893

I actually think that you are minimizing the cost of public colleges by focusing on colleges in certain regions. Many flagship universities in the Northeast are prohibitively expensive to low and moderate income students. Merit can help. Financial aid mostly won’t. And oddly enough, at some of these colleges, merit aid seems to mostly go to out of state students. Even the non-flagship state colleges are too expensive for lots of families or require more debt than is sustainable.

I know that I am not saying anything new here, but the problem with admissions begins with affordability for many families not with selectivity. The price of college is out of reach to so many students who are otherwise college ready. Now, I realize that this issue cannot be fixed by the admissions offices, but access is a problem that doesn’t really get discussed here because so many posters can actually afford a relatively high cost of attendance. Sure many do not want to do so, but when posters talk about merit, they are often looking for colleges that will result in a net price in the 25-50K range for their student. Finding a college in that range is clearly stressful, but at least from what I can tell, there are options out there even before merit aid. For those of us trying to find some place under 20K range, the options are fewer, and I suspect the stress is much higher. Or the kid will have to live at home, which is not the end of the world, but for every qualified kid who doesn’t get into their state flagship because of “too many” applicants or “grade inflation” or impacted majors, there are plenty of kids who don’t even consider applying to their state flagship because they would need more aid than the place offers its residents.

Again, not saying anything new, but I’m pointing out that a lot of the loudest teeth gnashing seems to come from families who can afford their flagship.

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9894

Thank you for saying this. We are upper middle class (not on CC where we are considered low income but when you actually look at our household income compared to the US median household income which I believe is like 67k) and our flagship would have been pretty unaffordable for us. It would have involved pretty significant debt - well beyond the $14k my D22 will end up with (subsidized loans only) at her meets need school. Going for need-based aid was the way to go for us. Her other option were schools that meet a lot of need and also have merit aid and she applied to a few of those thinking it would get us close to a full meets need school. (Merit aid alone was unlikely to get us where we needed to be). But she didn’t even apply to the state flagship as it would have been by far our most expensive option according to the NPC (and she didn’t want a big school anyway). The state flagship - at least in many states - is not necessarily the most economical choice for most people.

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9895

So to this I say -

Why does it have to be a flagship?

Some states have programs for free tuition. Tennessee does now. I know Michigan does, NY does, etc.

Can’t afford to go away to school? Rutgers is $32K.

Maybe you have to go to Ramapo or William Paterson and stay home. Or W Carolina for $20K or if you have great stats, Missisippi State for less than $20K all in.

Can’t afford UVA in state? CNU will be $14K less before merit.

Many schools give merit aid to OOS - because they can “attract” these students and either gain more revenue that they need or raise the profile of their university. Your disdain should be for your state - although they have to fund schools somehow. Why are so many from the Northeast going to Coastal Carolina or so many from Illinois, Texas, and the NE going to Alabama?

"The price of college is out of reach to so many students who are otherwise college ready. " - and then you find regionals - if you’re in the NE - a West Chester or Millersville or Maine, etc. or Murray State or Western Kentucky. Or you go to a local school and live home or go to a community college.

The issue isn’t the lack of options - sorry. The issue is - people want something that has a cost for a cost that they desire or the cost that may not exist. Why else are people applying to schools, even if they get into, it’s known up front they can’t afford. Or if the school does does exist - it’s is beneath them.

This isn’t high school. Education has a cost. Our property taxes aren’t covering it.

Again, it comes in many shapes and sizes - but as consumers, we need to find the product that works - and this is my point before - too many aren’t willing.

If you can’t afford to eat at Flemings, why are you trying to get a reservation there?

Building a list properly - matters - and this is where many are off.

No matter the politics of the cost of education, this won’t change - and many will continue to be ticked off or to put their children in debt.

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9896

This thread got me thinking how I often read posts about how there is no such thing as a dream school and this assertion is supposedly evidenced by numerous stories of kids transferring from top schools. This is typically part of a broader narrative endorsing specific cost “efficient” schools, while suggesting there is nothing unique or distinct about individual schools academic experiences or opportunities (but that subject appears worn out). For the record I don’t think of academic experiences as homogeneous or commodities similar across schools.

In fairness, I didn’t search extensively but I don’t recall many of these “dream school regret” posts, while I do see some sad stories of kids who regret not being able to attend their “dream schools”.

So I looked and there appears to be an inverse relationship between acceptance rates and graduation rates. Meaning the lower single digit acceptance schools have the highest graduation rates, seemingly contradicting this narrative of mass flight and dissatisfaction at top schools. In fact it’s statistically the exact opposite.

While I don’t think a kid should have one “dream school”, I don’t see evidence to support “dream school” flight when Ivy grad rates are in the 94-98% range while large southern state schools are 70% or lower.

It’s possible to encourage kids to apply across a spectrum of selectivity without falsely suggesting that kids at top pedigree schools regret their decisions.

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9897

My understanding of the “don’t have a dream school” line isn’t “no school will live up to your dreams and you should go somewhere more affordable”, it’s “these schools are so hard to get into, with such unpredictable acceptances, you should go into this process with a range of schools that you would love to go to and can afford, and then make the most of wherever you end up.” I suspect the wording on various posts is sometimes a bit inelegant, but I also suspect that the encouragement to think beyond single-digit schools all happens on the “still applying” end of the timeline. Once folks are accepted (and if the schools are affordable), I can’t recall many (any?) posts steering students away from their “dream” schools.

Put another way, I think the messages interpreted as “don’t have a dream school” are usually saying “don’t only have a dream school while applying.”

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9898

Agreed in full as long as not followed by claims that there are dozens of posts from kids that got into their dream schools and regretted it. I just don’t see that and think it is a false narrative.

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9899

Dartmouth reinstating the SAT starting next year! Lee Coffin had been hinting but I wasn’t expecting this so soon.

From my NYT newsletter this morning:

‘Convinced by the data’

Dartmouth College announced this morningthat it would again require applicants to submit standardized test scores, starting next year. It’s a significant development because other selective colleges are now deciding whether to do so. In today’s newsletter, I’ll tell you the story behind Dartmouth’s decision.

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9900

ACT catching strays . . . .

9901

If your student can present a test score in line with the school/department they are applying to, is there any time when presenting a test score wouldn’t be productive?

9902

It’s both:

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Dartmouth logo

Office of the President

Dear Dartmouth community members,

As president, I am acutely focused on how we enhance Dartmouth’s academic excellence in pursuit of our teaching and research mission. One way we do this is by constantly reviewing how we recruit, admit, and enroll a talented and diverse group of undergraduate students. We are looking for students from the broadest swath of society who will thrive at Dartmouth, create impact in the world, and become the next generation of leaders across fields, ideologies, and disciplines.

To that end, I am sharing an announcement made today by Vice President and Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid Lee Coffin that returns to a standardized testing requirement for undergraduate admissions, effective for next year’s application cycle (the Class of 2029). This decision was guided by social science research that suggests we can improve our ability to identify students from a wide range of economic backgrounds who will succeed at Dartmouth.

The testing requirement was paused at the start of the COVID-19 pandemic when many students were not able to take SATs and ACTs. The hiatus allowed us to look at our admissions data over several years—years in which the SAT/ACT was required and years in which it was optional. Analysis of this data by Dartmouth economics and sociology professors and related analyses examining students at a number of Ivy Plus institutions (here and here) has led us to conclude that our holistic admissions approach to identifying the most promising students, regardless of their background, benefits from a careful consideration of testing information as part of their application package. In particular, SAT/ACTs can be especially helpful in identifying students from less-resourced backgrounds who would succeed at Dartmouth but might otherwise be missed in a test-optional environment.

Several key findings guided our decision: First, standardized test scores are an important predictor of a student’s success in Dartmouth’s curriculum, and this is true regardless of a student’s background or family income. Second, in a test-optional system, many applicants don’t submit test scores. This disadvantages applicants from less-resourced families because Dartmouth admissions considers applicants’ scores in relation to local norms of their high school (so, for example, a 1400 SAT score from an applicant whose high school has an SAT mean of 1000 gives us valuable information about that applicant’s ability to excel in their environment, at Dartmouth, and beyond). In a test-optional system, Dartmouth admissions often misses the opportunity to consider this information.

SAT and ACT scores reflect inequality in society and in educational systems across the nation. The research does not dispute that. Crucially, though, the research shows that standardized test scores can be an important predictor of academic success at a place like Dartmouth and beyond—more so even than just grades or recommendations, for example—and with a test-optional policy, prompted by the pandemic, we were unintentionally overlooking applicants from less-resourced backgrounds who could thrive here.

Dartmouth has dramatically increased financial aid offerings in an effort to ensure that admitted students, regardless of their family’s income, are able to matriculate. We are committed to evidence-based policy decisions. A standardized test score doesn’t—and shouldn’t—dictate our admissions decisions, but it should inform those decisions. Reinstating our testing requirement (which considers scores as one of many factors within our broader understanding of a candidate’s application, see our FAQ) allows us to use all of the data at our disposal, along with generous financial aid that continues to expand, to admit and support the broadest and most talented student body possible.

We know standardized tests can cause anxiety in the lives of prospective students. We hope clarity around our policy and the reasoning behind it lessens this stress. We will continue to examine our admissions practices over time and base our decisions on social science research and data to ensure that we are finding the most promising students who, with a Dartmouth education, will have an outsized impact on the world.

Sincerely,

Sian Leah Beilock
President

Dartmouth Lone Pine

Office of Communications, Dartmouth College, 7 Lebanon St., Suite 201, Hanover, NH

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9903

My two cents is I think the useful part of the counter-narrative is something like this.

The way some people talk about their “dream schools”, just enrolling is a golden ticket to a life of easy pleasure, whereas failing to enroll at their dream schools will make all their hard work and sacrifice pointless.

This, of course, is quite wrong. These are all just schools, and while a good college education can be part of developing a successful professional career, just enrolling in a good school doesn’t make that happen. You’ll still have to work for it in college, work for it again in whatever you do next after college, possibly work for it again in another school, more jobs, and so on throughout your career. Looking back, going to a good college will just be one of many steps in such a life.

Conversely, there is not some extremely short list of colleges which can be a good school for you. For any individual person, at a fairly broadly range of schools, if you make good use of the opportunities available you will likely have comparable next step opportunities. Not necessarily identical opportunities, but not necessarily better or worse, just maybe a bit different.

And in general, how you actually do in college is usually pretty important to your next step opportunities. And so completely aside from college admissions, to the extent before college you worked to prepare for success in college–got a good general education, acquired a range of basic academic skills, learned good organization and study habits, explored interests and talents, and so on–that is never wasted effort if you then go on to college.

So to the extent the “anti-dream” narrative is about understanding that “dream schools” are typically not the unique opportunities for a golden life they are sometimes portrayed as being, that to me is fine, because that is true.

But dream schools are still usually AMONG the good schools a person could choose. So I agree it doesn’t make much sense to try to portray them negatively. It is more that while they can be a good bet to be a positive, they are not uniquely so.

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9904

So definitely not counter-productive. Technically it just may not make a difference, such as if you are already past whatever academic bar they have established and now they would be on to considering other things. But since you often can’t know that for sure, you might as well submit.

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9905

I think most kids who get into highly selective schools enjoy them - but sometimes they don’t and I don’t believe that is going to be captured by transfer rate (or lack thereof). I personally know two kids who do not like the Ivy that they are attending - one really, really doesn’t like it - but they will never leave because “I’d be an idiot to give up this opportunity”. That isn’t to say I think that this kind of thinking is prevalent just that looking at transfer rate alone probably doesn’t tell the whole story. Once you are in at a highly selective school there is often social and family pressure to stay whether or not the experience is a good one for you personally.

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9906

Maybe. I’ve known enough people who were very good in school - when the path to success is laid out for you - and were unimpressive afterwards in the private sector where rules to success are opaque.

I think the more interesting question is what are the traits that lead to success post college? Certainly a strong GPA kid has learned diligence and delayed gratification, maybe even how to please the teacher/boss. And those traits will likely get you a car, but not a Bugatti.

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9907

Has this student articulated specifically what it was about their particular Ivy experience that wasn’t working?

9908

This to me is sorta obvious, but . . . lots of things can go wrong with an academically-challenging residential college.

Some people are not really ready to move away from home and friends and such.

Some people are really burned out on school.

Some people are not really prepared for the new challenges in college.

Some people get distracted and overwhelmed by non-academic things.

Some people react poorly to an unfamiliar cultural or natural environment.

And on and on.

Fancy colleges do not in fact have a universal answer for all these possible problems people can encounter. And sometimes, for some kids, there might well have been better alternatives in retrospect–closer to home, not so academically intense, not so different, and so on. In other cases, maybe a gap year would have been a good idea. And so on.

I am not sure this really fits neatly into “dream school” discussions, though. Indeed, often what we are doing is pointing out if you think you would like the experience of going to a certain very selective college, there are probably less selective colleges that could offer a similar experience. Which is great to know, but then if it turns out that you were not really suited for that experience at all, or not yet, then that alternative could actually be just as inappropriate.

So to me this is really just a general issue people should be aware of, to reflect on, and to be prepared to deal with possibly even unexpectedly.

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9909

Social, I believe in both cases (which, in all fairness, could be an issue at any school at any level of selectivity) - snobbism, too many rich kids etc. Who knows, this might change over time - even into sophomore year kids may struggle to fit in.

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9910

Interested in this, too, but how can you tell?

9911

Exactly. You put it well. Essentially, what I’m pointing out is that there are probably going to be some discontented students at all kinds of colleges, regardless of selectivity. To a certain extent, kids are making a leap of faith when choosing since there isn’t a way to really know “how it is” until you are there.

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9912

Just to be clear, I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. I was suggesting what sort of opportunities you get immediately after college might in part be a function of how you do in college, but then those are also not golden tickets. Now you are in a selective job, or grad program, or professional school, or whatever, and now you have to perform again. And then you finish with that, and get something else, and now you have to perform again in that. And on and on.

This is just life, right? It is a long series of “what have you done lately?”. If you are 40 and looking for a promotion or perhaps a higher position with a new employer, they will primarily care about your recent work. And so on.

And I completely agree some people really struggle to specifically make the transition from success in school to success in actual jobs.

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