Fourth dimension- what are the assumptions of the professor about the foundational background of most of the students in the class.
If you are taking an intro Econ class as a Freshman with a bunch of kids who got 5’s in BC calculus- even if the professor grades generously and even if the course is only of average difficulty with average amount of work compared to the typical course at that college… a student who maxed out on trig in HS is going to struggle to keep up. A problem set which will take the strong math students 30 minutes to complete may take this student three hours.
If you are taking a Freshman history class and the most complicated paper you ever wrote in HS was a 10 page “cut and paste” from Wikepedia and secondary sources, your final paper (requiring primary sources, a detailed appendix and footnotes, with an original hypothesis and conclusions) is going to suck all the oxygen out of the air if your classmates have experience with this kind of writing and analytical exercise. Your classmates already know the “how’s” of the assignment- they have done it multiple times. So they can focus on the analysis. You are the only Freshman who not only has to figure out a topic, identify the right sources, develop an outline… AND figure out how to format, research, access materials, etc.
Not every HS prepares every kid equally- even a smart kid with sub-par prep is likely to struggle until he or she gets up to speed.
I think no one knows if @gingeroo is ahead of the game or not until his/her undergrad education is successfully completed. @gingeroo has not yet set foot in the classroom as an undergrad. So I think we need to stop praising that choice – @gingeroo MAY come back and wish they had picked a school with stronger fellow students. Or find that the program is not all it is marketed to be. Or maybe it will be a great experience, and @gingeroo will be glad he/she did not spend one penny more on an undergrad education. But now it is just a decision that poster has made, not an actual thing that has happened with the outcome known.
Introductory economics does not require calculus as a prerequisite. You probably mean to write the above in the context of general strength of math preparation. A student who got to precalculus in a high school with good math courses would likely have a stronger math background than a student who got to calculus AB and barely got a 3 on the test after attending a high school with generally weaker math courses.
As I pointed out in my first post in this thread, it is obvious that some still cling to faulty assumptions and a romantic view of the college process. The answer, as the OP seems to have learned from this thread, is to replace such assumptions by solid facts and a smaller number of idle speculation.
To be clear, the choices made by gingeroo might be the very best he (or she) could have made. However, his individual choice might be far from different from the OP son, in terms of qualifications, financial status, and mostly in terms of personal objectives. Gingeroo mentioned the faith and social issues, yet we do NOT know what the objectives of the OP are. Is it med school? law school? Or a sting in a PhD program in social sciences? The reality is that he probably does not know any more than most naïve 17 years old who have followed a path paved from them for the past 12 years of education!
Further, some still seem to rely on faulty assumptions such as “I could have gone to an Ivy League school if I wanted to …” or “You could always go to a HYPMS graduate school later” The reality is that gingeroo CANNOT say that unless he applied and was … accepted. The "I: in “if I wanted to” is simply false. He decided to not apply (which for many is the right choice) but decided to pursue a school such as SLU that matched his qualifications better and rewarded him with a possible $80,000 for selecting them. For the record, my younger cousin made a similar “choice” and is a freshman in St Louis. Yet, he cannot claim he could have gone to an Ivy League if HE wanted to! He did, however, pick the school that offered the best combination of academics, social, and perhaps faith attributes. The same might happen at schools such as Notre Dame or perhaps Georgetown.
And that is why the issue of fit is paramount, A school has to be a good fit for the student, but also for the parents as the importance of financial aid and … meeting a certain level of ROI are not to be ignored.
In the end, there is little to be lost in compiling a list that is NOT restrictive. Many people are surprised by the financial aid component (both positively or negatively) but one cannot see the final packages until seeing an offer of admission, and one cannot be admitted without first … applying!
The story would be a LOT more compelling if it were shared in April next year with a title “My son got accepted by XXX but he wants to attend YYY” At this stage of the game, there are few reasons to think the “choice” made is brilliant, let alone applaud it. There is no downfall for the student to “honor” the wishes or expectations of the parents by, at least, give it a good shot.
And, fwiw, that is hardly a story of excessive parental or misguided expectations or a “Ivy or bust” dilemma. And surely not one that some have tried to characterize along racial or cultural lines. People of all races face similar situations.
There is a reverse to that coin. And that reverse is the ability (and need) to improve on one’s lacking prior education level.
Can we safely assume that the adcoms at the top schools are no dummies, and that they end up admitting students who “can go the job.” Considering the average GPA at the schools that make most utter 'oohs and aahs" it appears that most have little problem performing at a high level.
Does it benefit a good student who was smart or competitive but attended a HS that was not exactly excellent to continue on the same path? Does it help to attend a school that will hardly push him to get better in calculus or in the art of writing papers? Does it not HELP the student to finally be part of a group that will strive for excellence and LEARN things that require more than a perfect attendance and a red apple on the desk of the substitute teacher?
Top schools (to use that trite) term often have a number of classes of different difficulty. Statistics for non-scientists might help overcome the fear of calculus. Writing for Business can be a proxy for a feared Composition class. Yet, the greatest benefit for a student might come from taking a class that challenges him! Heck, we could use more engineers who can write a cogent argument and lit majors who can balance a check book!
I spent Freshman year of college compensating for what I’d never done in HS. Do I regret it? Not for one minute. Did it make the year challenging? Absolutely. Did I wonder about the grade inflation back in my HS when I saw what it took to get an A in college? 100%.
So Xiggi- I am in no way saying that a kid should pick a college weighed down by their HS prep. But a kid who is ALREADY worrying about college GPA isn’t going to dig in with hard, interesting classes. I went to a HS where if you did your homework and weren’t high when you got to class you were assured a B+ at least. A little class participation and that was an A.
I went to college and learned that doing your homework and showing up was the minimum requirement to assure that you weren’t going to flunk. But anything past that had to be earned. A great lesson for an 18 year old… but to assume that the only thing that dictates how “hard” a college is going to be is the difficulty of the course work… ignores the fact that not every kid sitting in a lecture hall has had the same rigor in HS prep.
And I told my kids when they went off to college- if you never get a C on a test or a paper you are taking the easy way out.
Having different levels of entry level courses exists at many schools, not just “top” ones. But the range of offerings may be shifted to align with student selectivity.
For example, Harvard entry level math ranges from slow calculus (like high school AB) to triple honors calculus 3 / analysis / linear algebra / etc. Math 55. An open admission community college may range from elementary algebra (like high school algebra 1) to regular calculus 3.
The OP referred a couple of times to the idea that “working hard” might pay off more at some less selective schools. I think this is worth talking about a bit. I think one thing that is difficult for some parents (and perhaps some immigrant parents in particular) to swallow is the idea that hard work is not the primary key to admission to highly selective colleges in the United States. In fact, a student who had to work extremely hard to get top grades in high school is probably not the typical admit at such colleges (unless he went to an unusually difficult high school). Many, if not most, admits to top schools didn’t have to work all that hard to get excellent grades. Now, most of them did work very hard, but it was often at extracurricular activities–research, writing, music, athletics, lots more. The kid who had to sacrifice those outside activities in order to work very hard on academics is probably not going to get into the most highly selective schools.
There are many, many colleges where hard work (in the form of grades) is valued, and ECs aren’t nearly as important. But the Ivies and similar schools aren’t really like that–if you had to study for several hours each night in order to keep up in your AP courses in high school (I mean study in addition to completing homework assigments), then you are probably going to find life at an Ivy or equivalent school frustrating, because while the students there do a lot of work, they spend a lot of time on other activities as well.
I don’t know if any of this applies to the OP’s son, but it’s something to think about when looking at fit.
Technically it doesn’t at my kid’s Ivy alma mater. However, if you haven’t taken calc, you take a different introductory course than the people who have taken calc. It’s roughly analogous to science courses for non majors. To major in econ you have to at least completed multivariable calc, which is required for many of the upper division courses. It would be pretty darn hard to major in econ without having taken calc in high school.
I’m not saying it’s impossible; it isn’t. However, you’d have to delay many of the required courses for the major until you had finished 3 semesters of calc. I think it would be hard to figure out whether you want to be an econ major until you’d taken the intermediate courses.
You really can’t assume you will get a chance to attend any specific school (or schools in any athletic conference…) for grad school. Someone said to my D2 when she was thinking of turning down U of Chicago that she could “just go for grad school”. I made sure she understood there was NO guarantee she would be admitted again at the grad level, and that she should not rely on that idea in any way. If she turned them down for undergrad, she may very well not get another chance. She turned 'em down (with my blessing, and is very happy with the school she picked), but I wanted to make sure she wasn’t relying on getting another shot someday. No one should assume that the OP’s kid will have a shot at top schools for grad school (or would even want to attend one then).
Congratulations on raising such a smart son. His arguments are valid and if graduate school is another goal, he should find an academically strong school and do his best to excel. If he uses college to academically excel, he should have no problem getting into a good graduate program. Our children’s goals are not our own and I know you want the best for your son. Let him apply where he wants and know he will make good decisions.
There is a good variation between different colleges in content covered and course sequences. For example, Stanford has a basic introduction to economics course that has no math prerequisites and can easily be taken by non-majors who find math challenging. They also offer an introduction to probabilistic modeling for economics that requires introductory calculus level math, and as an introductory economic analysis class that requires multivariable calc + linear algerbra as a prerequisite. Economics majors are required to take all 3 classes. There are not many different levels or different starting points in economics. However, in other fields there are more interesting options. For example, at one time Stanford offered 4 different physics levels (now they have 3) that covered similar general content (with possibly exception of the last one). The 4 were:
Advanced Freshman Physics – “For students with a strong high school mathematics and physics background contemplating a major in Physics or interested in a rigorous treatment of physics.” It lists mastering AP physics as a prerequisite . – The class was mostly physics majors, with a smaller portion of engineering majors.
Physics using Calculus – Requires calculus as a prerequisite, as well as taking an additional class about applications for physics. – The class was mostly taken by engineering majors, with a smaller portion of pre-meds.
Physics without Calculus – Requires high school trigonometry – The class was mostly taken by pre-meds, with a smaller portion of non pre-med social science majors.
Physics for Poets – I’ve only read about this class and don’t know anyone who is taken it. Chapters had titles like “E=MC^2 and all that” with syllabus comments like “Twinkle, twinkle little vector. How I wonder what’s your sector.” I’m guessing this class was mostly taken by non-technical persons trying to fulfill a general graduation requirement.
Oh, Stanford just added Physics for Poets to rival with L&S 70A Physics and Music taught at Berkeley. Ya know, got to keep up with those Nobel Prize winners’ seminars and the small handful of admitted students at both schools who did pick Berkeley over Stanford.
The previous few posts remind me of a remark of a well-known physics professor at a flagship about the physics course taken by many grade-centric premeds at that college:
This is a national campaign of dumbing down some of the brightest minds in our country.
It seems that in a post on this thread, somebody kind of said it may be wise to go to a college that is potentially (not for sure) at a slightly lower “competitively level” in order to “secure” the all important GPAs. This saying goes hand-in-hand with the saying that “the achievement on the MCAT test” is mostly an individual effort, not about what kind of school you attend.
Whether it is about the level of physics course to take, or the kind of college to attend, the same idea applies as regard to increasing the odds of getting a better GPA for the next educational opportunity.
Related to the medicine career particularly, the thing about the strong “in-state preference” in the medical school admission policy is, in a sense, not purely academic merit based. A similarly related saying is that which med school you attends does not matter a bit (because, say, Medicare may pay the doctor the same rate as long as he/she has the same “license”, by and large.) It
is as if the best medical school in any state (as long as it is not a Caribbean one) is as good as, say, HMS in MA. Or, the best college in any state is as good as, God forbidden (if I say this), Harvard College.
Maybe there is some “merit” to have a system in some career paths such that, as long as the student’s performance is above some threshold (in this case, he is good enough to get into any of the 130 or so med schools), he or she is equally good as all other students. In other words, let’s use the pass/fail grade and do not bother with A/B/C/D/F grades.
In some years in the past, some particularly “hot” major at that flagship chose a lottery system to select their incoming students from a pool of applicants whose credentials were above a certain threshold of academic merits (being a state school, the non-quantifiable merits like the quality of the ECs were mostly tossed out - they may lose a lot of full pay students because of this policy.) They claim this admission policy is better for the society in the long run.
Most Ivies rarely give B's anymore. I read an article that an A-minus is the most popular grade at Ivies.
If you look at the post-grad outcomes of top schools, the "Tailgate State inflated GPA theory" holds no weight. Even in the honors sections of state schools, very few ever make it to medical school. I'd value the connections, the brand power and a lowly 3.5 GPA at an Ivy over a 3.9 GPA at Tailgate State.
When a higher % of your class is gunning for medical, law, etc. you pick up skills and intangibles steeping in that ethos.
Lock up the prestige in reach now. You might not get a second act.
Just remember that it’s your son’s education and future, not yours. I understand that you want your child to got to an Ivy college, but your son should be able to make his own collegiate decisions.
Re 1: A- (on average) is generally good enough for med school admission, especially due to the rampant “in-state love”. Be careful though: do not take more science courses than needed. There are some reasons why the grade-centric/obsessed premed students “optimize” the number (and kind) of science prereqs to take, no more and no less. (You do not need too much science in this career path, do you?! Just get the damn science GPA high enough (but no need to be too high. The grade efficiency is the key, not the absolute value of the GPA.)
Re: The preprofessionalism atmosphere at these “higher up” places could be depressing for some kids especially as freshmen. Be psychologically prepared for that. It is for the game of getting the worthy grades, not for the love of learning. No need to be too serious about this. (Sarcastic here.)
One trick to keep your sanity may be that you think you are a premed (or prelaw?) only when you are in a premed lecture class or lab and keep a safe distance from those potentially neurotic peers on the premed track. Allocate a healthy amount of your time to non-premed activities to keep yourself calm and sane. (But ultimately you need to overcome this “weakness”, as your peer students at the med school may likely live and breathe 24 hours everyday for their “$$$ career goals” but it will be next to impossible to avoid them in your daily life due to the smallness of the class.)
A few years ago, a senior at Duke posted on CC that he sometimes felt ALL students there have these two career goals mentioned in item 3 here.
