Parents: Our Son Could Go To Ivy But Refuses. Advice?

Parents Forum
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Some comments on posts. A lot of good advice about finding which size, location et al seem good to him. That means visiting the various types mentioned. One poster meant excellent schools when stating Ivy- not at all the same. Ivies are merely a small subset of excellent schools. Another misconception is that all state flagships are equal. Some are elite, others more ordinary. Likewise with private schools- some are elite, most are in line with public schools of varying caliber. Liberal arts colleges are not necessarily the best choice for the STEM major, even a student choosing one of those fields with the intention of going to medical school. Differences in research institutions (TA’s can be great). Finally- be sure your son realizes that he will need to work harder than he thinks at any college, in any course. There is no easy path to excellence but there can be a very enjoyable one.

Hopefully this discussion has opened your eyes to the world of colleges. Every school has its pros and cons. You and your son need to explore many types to see which he prefers. Now is a good time to check on schools relatively near you. Vacations would be well spent discovering other parts of the country as well.

In the long run going to an Ivy or another good public or private school will not determine your son’s potential for a successful life- both academically and in al of the other facets that make a good life.

A comparison. There is success outside of India’s IIT system. Do not be a slave to prestige.

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^^^^This.

complimentary that what cbreeze said, I had an intrrvirw with Princeton alumus and she told me that she never told their childrrn to go to Princeton likr she did. Two her kids went to Purdue when I was in HS

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To me, this sounds like an argument between a kid (high school Junior) who wants to put less into his studies and parents who want him to put more into his studies. I’m guessing that this family argument is actually about how he should be spending his time now not about which college he will attend. Can’t you hear the argument about grades and effort? “Why should I bother? I don’t want to go to HYPSM!”

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SanjayinSanJose‌ – S#1 reached for the stars but settled for a school among the Colleges and Universities That Claim to Meet Full Financial Need. It is a great list and is our road map for S#2 and S#3. I too am an engineer; and the financial aid from these schools makes life bearable. Don’t forget Cal Berkely.

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@chesterton and @SanjayinSanJose‌

This is such a great topic for so many reasons. Let me preface this by saying I am the mother of a current hs senior who has been working to get into a good college (not Ivy but that wouldn’t be for her anyway) since she started school. Not so much to get into “the best” but to get in “the best for her”. Unlike the vast majority of her peers, she has been extremely academically focused throughout high school, to the occasional point of ridicule. Justice is prevailing however as the decisions have been rolling in and she is being rewarded, luckily by many acceptances and scholarships.

I surprisingly find myself agreeing with some of @sanjayinsanjose’s potentially-insulting-to others innuendos that pushing your kid to achieve academically beyond anything else is a worth while effort. I honestly feel that American society, and I love my country so much don’t get me wrong, has deemphasized the importance of excelling academically. We need to make science and math “sexy” like we do the Kardashians or sports or whatever. I live in a town where soccer and swimming and some other sports take precedence over academics. And no one seems to notice or care. People complain the schools give too much homework but they have no problem having their kid go to swim practice at 530 AM and then again at 5 PM every day, ironically with the hopes of their kid getting an athletic scholarship to college? No wonder we are behind as a country in math and science.

What happened to trying to get into college the old-fashioned way, by hitting the books? Studying hard?

So I commend you for realizing that your son can achieve happiness and success by achieving academically. However, I fear you are limiting yourself in the types of schools you think are right for him.

First of all, even with a 2400, perfect GPA, and possibly having split the atom in the 9th grade, he may not get into one of these so called “Best” schools. They just can’t take everyone that is qualified. And if you are Asian, it might even be that much harder for him now.

I think you need to listen to your son and do some more research on what are the “best” schools. “Best” is such a subjective term and truly is impossible to define. Nonetheless, if you feel that you must have him achieve the “best” and you look at the U.S. News and World Report rankings, there are plenty of “non-Ivy” schools on there, and depending on what his intended major is, there may be other lists that scrutinize various programs even more and may yield results that conflict with your “Ivy’s are the best” theory.

The valedictorian from our HS chose our state school last year for engineering, and it wasn’t only for financial reasons. He will have research opportunities that he would never have had at a “better” school. He will shine.He will graduate with real experience that many of his “Ivy” peers would kill for. I know of another person who chose a less selective school for studying Economics and was published as a freshman. A good friend of mine is a successful news anchor and when she recruits interns she purposely looks at top kids in the second tier schools because they get much more hands on experience.

Your son’s big fish little pond argument is quite valid. (As it relates to medical school however, make sure you check out the stats on the % of students accepted to medical school from a particular college…results vary!)

As for your comments @chesterton, while I respect your respect for academic excellence, I think you are being extremely narrow minded in your views on the “best” colleges. Ironically, this goes against everything one would learn at an Ivy League school.

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There are great schools and experiences out side the Ivy league. Great state schools with outstanding engineering programs Berkley Michigan North Carolina Georgia Tech Penn State Illinois… They are half the price and higher rated in engineering than most of the Ivies.

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From one desi to another: why does your son not consider applying to IITs in India? Prestige is on par with ivy league but at a fraction of the cost (a paltry $5000 USD per year).

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“And the condescension towards him and his community for feeling this way is quite astounding. I have many Indian friends from the time I lived in the Silicon Valley, and have Indian friends here in Florida, and all I know is that their desire to provide for a great education for their kids, and their willingness to make a lot of sacrifices in order to accomplish this, is to be admired, and more American parents could learn from their examples.”

Absolutely no one on this thread is condescending towards the idea that education is important and parental support of education is a good thing. We are responding to a very specific statement - that HYPSM is the pinnacle of achievement (“heaven on earth”) and that anything else other than those five schools is a compromise, an appreciable step down, “sloppy seconds.” That’s simply untrue. It is. That is not the same thing as saying that “There’s no difference between Podunk U and Harvard;” and for that matter, it is not the same thing as saying “There’s no difference between your state flagship and Harvard.”

It is the fixation and perseveration and glorification of 5 specific schools that we are reacting to, as though nothing other than those 5 are worth an excellent student’s time. I’m really sorry that many people in this gentleman’s community haven’t heard of Williams or Amherst or Carnegie Mellon or U of Chicago or Cornell or what-have-you. That doesn’t make not them not excellent schools. It is not a good mindset to cling to “if I haven’t heard of something, it can’t be good.” That’s not what a truly smart, educated person does. A truly smart, educated person says - hmmm, maybe there’s something I don’t know. Let me keep my mind open to it.

The comment about heaven-on-earth is very telling. It says that the community is still stuck in the mindset of - it’s the school, not the person. That isn’t how it works in America. It may very well work that way in India. That’s fine.

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“If you have a chance to go to Harvard or Stanford, it’s hard to imagine not going. That experience and education establishes a foundation for successful careers in almost anything you choose. One of the reasons is that they’re expert in identifying the best and brightest students in the world. If they want you, go.”

That was my point.

My point was NOT related to success of a person being directly related to going to an Ivy or even HYPSM. My point was that SOME kids reject Ivies outright because they are afraid:

  • it will be too difficult
  • it will be too competitive
  • they will get depressed if they get a B or, horrors, a C!
  • they won’t have time for fun
  • there is no fun to be had on an Ivy or similar campus
  • they will empty their parents’ bank accounts “for nothing”

My doctor’s son was like some kids, he wanted to “have time to party and have fun, and enjoy college”. As noted above, he got accepted to some Ivies and decided to go to the state school instead (money was not an issue at all). As someone who teaches at a state school, I can tell you that there are students who cannot do basic algebra. And there are students who can’t read a graph. If you are among the best and brightest in HS, let’s just say by SAT score (2200+) and GPA (3.8+ UW), and you go to a state school, especially one without an honors program, you will have a rude awakening. All those years in AP and honors classes and you are back in the regular class. A student threw a bottle at one of our professors. We get emails that say “Hey” or “Yo” as the introduction. Conversely, some kids go to HYPSM and have a wake-up call that they aren’t the best any more, they are lucky to be average. My doctor’s son switched to an Ivy because he was unhappy with the classes and the classmates, and felt he fit in better at the Ivy. YMMV.

Go into the process with your eyes open, and you and your child should be fine. If he is wise enough to think that undergrad GPA is everything, and he is either patient enough to put up with “peers” that he has not dealt with since 6ht grade, or lucky enough to get into an honors college where he will have real peers, then he should go to a school where he believes his chance at a 3.7 or better is very high.

I also have no idea why SLACs are being mentioned at all in this thread. The son has indicated that GPA is king due to being pre-med, and I don’t think anyone would argue that top non-Ivy schools are at least as difficult as Ivies and Stanford and MIT. I mentioned state schools because many of them have easier classes. I don’t want to imply that Swarthmore and Williams are “easy schools to get a 4.0 at”; the OP says that is his son’s goal. I also don’t think either school is known for being cost-effective.

I’m not trying to insult state schools either, but everything I have seen in my state points to easier classes at the state schools by far. A quick and dirty comparison is the AP courses and exams as compared to the courses that they give credit for. I teach courses that can be placed out of using AP exam scores, and I can tell you that students who get a 4 or 5 on the AP exam have learned much more than students who have taken the two courses that credit is received for. So yes, getting a 4.0 where I teach should be easy for a top student (stats noted above). Getting a 4.0 in the honors curriculum is a challenge.

Is it an insult to report what the truth is, that many (not all) state schools have classes that are easier and are graded easier than Ivies and other top schools? That many graduates of state schools do great after college more shows that the college experience does not need to translate directly to one’s job.

Flame away.

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Have you considered teaching at a good state university?

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Looks like this thread is turning into just another prestige war because it is short on some key specifics.

Notably, the OP (parent) hints at high levels of debt, but has not given specifics on whether net price calculators have been checked for the various potential colleges. Getting some actual numbers would allow a better assessment of whether specific schools are “worth it”, since common assumptions on costs are not necessarily true for each individual situation. The parents need to figure out how much they can afford to contribute to the son while (a) not putting their own household finances in danger, and (b) being able to contribute similarly to the younger daughter’s college costs. And don’t forget the high cost of medical or law school.

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Isn’t it true that, for, say, 80+% of the cases, it is the med/law school students themselves, rather than their parents, who will ultimately be responsible for the high cost of med or law school with their “future income”?

However, I would agree that the students should not be heavily loaded with student loan debt for their UG education, unless they really have no other choice.

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The problem still exists in America too. You read all of these stories about how people think state schools and less-than-elite privates are worthy of consideration, even for high performing students. However, when it’s their kid’s future on the line, most tend to default to the old stubborn belief that more exclusive/selective = more successful.

Personally, I think it’s shame so many people gloss over colleges which are not tippy top ranked. I understand the whole social status thing, but some simply take it too far IMO. In most cases, their concerns with ranking correlate poorly with real world outcomes.

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Sanjay,

I have the same background as you do. Our kids are also the same age. However my son’s thoughts are a little different than yours. I wanted to share with you my thoughts.

  1. You have to gently explain to your son that being a big fish in a little pond still makes for a little fish. At some point he will come into contention with big fishes. It is better than he learns to compete now than later.

  2. The debt is yours, not his. I wouldn’t discuss debts with him. There is no point discussing finances with a 14 year old. I would just tell him that you can afford it, he won’t have a loan, and leave it at that.

  3. GPA is not everything. Grad schools are not idiots. They will weigh the GPA by the caliber of the school. Of course, there will hardly be any difference between HYPSM and another top-10, or even top-20. But then it will be equally difficult for him to get a high GPA in HYPSM and another top-10 (Columbia, UChicago etc.). There is no easy ride anywhere in the top schools.

If however he truly wishes to go to a top-50, he may get the high GPA all right, but he should also understand that grad schools are not naive.

In my opinion, if you think he is capable of getting into HYPSM, then he should apply. I would make it the my house my rule thing. If he doesn’t go after getting in, make sure he goes to another top-20 and preferably top-10. While in the USA success can come to high-school dropouts, the same is true for our common home country as well. But that is hardly the point. The point is what are the expected odds of success across the schools for the same caliber student in the same discipline in the first 10 years of work (after that experience takes over). It is heavily skewed towards the higher ranked school, even if it is not zero for the lower ranked school. People in the USA like to focus on the fact that it is not zero, while ignoring the fact that it is lower.

Also, there is a general belief among many (but not all) American parents that pushing kids to do well in academics is OK only to a point (B+ average, let’s say). I would recommend that you do not fall for that. I have recruited many a kids from HYPSM straight out of college, and none of them were slackers regardless of their ethnicity. On CC, you will get the average opinion. If you kid is as good as you say he is, you want the opinion of parents with kids in the top 1 percentile.

Remember what Malcom Gladwell said in Outliers. It is all about ten thousand hours of practice. That applies regardless of ethnicity.

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PizzaGirl, American expats living in foreign countries typically do not assimilate either.

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I have a certificate in college counseling and I can tell you there have been studies that suggest that the “better” the school, the more “successful” the graduate. I believe success was defined mostly by salary, but there might have been more to it. In fact, I seem to remember learning that the relationship is quite linear.

However, there are so many different ways to look at these numbers and if one is to assume that in general “smarter” kids go to “better” schools. If “smarter” kids are ultimately more successful in life, then this argument makes sense. HOWEVER, it doesn’t mean that a really smart kid is going to any worse coming out of a lower ranked school. Not sure if this is making sense…but if the “easier” schools have less “smart” kids then yes then yes that’s schools success stats might be lower than a more elite school. But the real test would be if the smart kid that went to the easier school truly did worse…my hunch is probably not. If the kid is really smart and has a strong work ethic, for many reasons already discussed, they may actually do better in life given the opportunity to shine.

Someone mentioned the “Podunk” vs. “Harvard” comparison and I think that is an excellent point. I think when comparing schools it depends on the magnitude of the difference in their prestige. Would the smart kid do just as well coming out of Podunk as Harvard? Probably not. But coming out of B.U. or U Mass or Harvard…maybe. Maybe better. Unfortunately, this might be an impossible argument to ever prove. We really will never know.

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Yes. Which is one reason why the OP hinting that the son will have heavy undergraduate debt is a hint that there is a potential for a bad decision here. Adding heavy undergraduate debt to medical or law school debt just makes the financial equation worse.

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First of all your thread should be titled: “Our Son Could APPLY to Ivy But Refuses” I know kids with your son’s stats who are biting their nails down to the quick as they have been deferred and rejected from highly selective schools. And others who did not get into any Ivys or very top schools, when their academic credentials were top drawer. So as wonderful as your son’s profile might be, he may well not even get into the top schools. So applying is one thing, going is a whole other.

I would encourage him to stick a few highly selective schools into the mix when he makes up his list Nothing ED, just some options. The boy that he is today, may not be the man he will be in spring of senior year when it comes down to making the final options and he can’t go to a school to which he was not accepted,and he isn’ t getting accepted anywhere to which he did not apply. All a matter of having the choices. At that time he can mull all of this over.

I have no personal opinion as to what is best. I’ve seen kids bomb out of MIT, Hopkins, Cornell, UPenn,GeorgiaTech because it was too difficult and many whose med school or top law plans were squelched due to steep grading curves, tough competition at some schools, but some of the most selective schools are not such a tough go once a student is in there. The toughest part is getting accepted, not doing well once one is in there. There are some programs at schools that are not selective that are truly gpa busters and gate keepers. So the certain rules of thumb your son has in mind are not correct in reality. He can get a better flavor for the competitive atmosphere and toughness of schools by visiting, and doing some research.

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Not sure why you say the debt will the parent’s instead of the kid’s above. Assuming the kid can and does take advantage of federal loans (which have more protections than private loans, so are a better idea), the loans ARE in the kid’s name. The parent may SAY they are going to pay them off (and may eventually do so), but the debt IS in the name of the kid, and ultimately is their responsibility if the parent doesn’t come through. Also, not all parents could qualify for large private loans if they are needed.

Also, you can meet plenty of “big fish” at a school like UVA, Michigan, Berkeley, MIT, Williams, Swarthmore, Amherst, University of Chicago, CalTech, Duke, Johns Hopkins, Harvey Mudd, etc. The Ivy league is a SPORTS conference. Not the be-all and end-all of the only worthwhile college education.

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For kids on the premed track from these colleges (and maybe from many other colleges too), this could be true.

The percentage of Asian students on this track at such a college is on the high side though. So, it could still be like competing against the best of students at, say, one of the most competitive high schools in the Bay Area. I heard of this before: At such a college, students who were graduated from a public high school are more likely on this track than those from a competitive private high school. The environment (e.g., the composition of their premed pool) could be not that different no matter which college you go. I heard that EC opportunities (especially the nature of the ECs) could be more different (i.e., could be more “fun” at an ivy because of the way some of these ivies select their students. It could be really fun to be around some of these students - especially some of those non-premed ones.)