First, as several people have pointed out, there is no special magic to the Ivy League, although they are top-notch schools. But there are other top-notch schools, including MIT, Stanford, Duke, a number of excellent LACs, and others. It always creates confusion when "Ivies" are used as shorthand for this larger group. I prefer terms like "highly selective" schools.
So, let's assume for the sake of argument that the student in question is a reasonable candidate for a highly selective school. But at present, he doesn't want to apply to any of them. It seems to me that there are good reasons for such a position, and bad reasons.
Good reasons: The cost of the highly selective schools would impose an unacceptable level of debt on the family, and there are cheaper alternatives of high quality.
The highly selective schools do not have the particular major or program the student is interested in.
The student has visited and researched the highly selective schools and has well-thought-out reasons for why they aren’t a good fit.
Bad reasons: The student is concerned that he won’t have as high a GPA at the highly selective school (probably not really true for a good student who is willing to work). The student wants to party and have fun in college (this can happen at highly selective schools). The student is afraid of rejection if he applies to highly selective schools. The student thinks that highly selective schools are full of snobby prestige-hounds. The student believes that it doesn’t matter where you go for your undergraduate degree if you are planning to go to graduate or professional school.
Intparents, the only debt a student is guaranteed of getting on his own is the Direct Loan which amounts to $5500 freshman year and increases to $7500 by Junior/Senior year. Not a big dent in the $60K+ price tags of some of the private schools. The Perkins loans has to be given out by the school, and there has to be federal defined need to get it and it’s limited as well. Not easy to get it and no control over getting it or not If a parent is rejected form PLUS (parent Direct loan), then the student can get $4K more in student direct loans in own name, but that’s it.
The other loans that are allegedly the student’s are in fact cosigned by a parent or other creditworthy adult, and both are equally responsible for the loan. Goes on both credit reports, and if for any reason the payment is made by one, the other party is fully responsible as if the lone signer. And that can be if either student or adult signer (parent) dies. Those loans are not as flexible as PLUS either, for the most part. It is VERY much a parent loan. The lender just has two parties on the tetherhooks instead of just one. Better to go with PLUS as it has life insurance (loan forgiven if student OR parent dies) has flexibility for life hardships, and is only in the parent’s name.
@intparent, I meant to say that more parents are willing to share the student loan debts for their UG education than their professional school student loan debts, especially when the parents are not too old and are capable of doing so. Whose names on the loans sometimes are not a factor for some families (likely for OP’s family, I think. Some of my colleagues are Indians. I am almost envious of them about the closeness (in a good way) between them and their parents. Some of them told us that whatever their parents have are all theirs - except that what they (the children) say do not count much. LOL. One data point only though.)
Yes, I am aware of all that. But the poster in post #113 does not seem to be, or wants to just tell the kid, “no loans will be in your name”. I am just trying to say that at least $28K of them WILL be in the kid’s name. And I bet there are parents who say they will pay the loans, then run into financial difficulties and can’t/don’t. Or have a fight with their kids and decide not to.
I didn’t read everyone’s comments, but I will echo for sure some that I did read:
Your son is going to college. You are not. Even if you are paying for it, he should have the biggest say about where that is. Really, the only limiting factor for you should be cost, safety, and perhaps time or your own convenience. As far as course offered, type of college, etc. that really should be your son’s decision with your input, but he should get the final say.
Not all Ivy League colleges are the same. Brown University for example has a much more laid-back feel to it,a nd he can take classes pass-fail if he wants. That school could PERHAPS suit both of you.
If you start with the premise that a motivated student can get a good education at most colleges (top 50% for sure), then really all that needs to be done is to determine affordability, safety, and student fit. Not all students want to accept the rigors of an Ivy League school, and that should be completely up to the student. When you go through the rigors of a top-notch high school career, really, the ONLY reason to do that is to give yourself the opportunity to go to the college of your choice. A college with less pressure is a very good option. Let him make his choice. He will love you more than ever for it.
When my child went to college, I told him we would pay for his college but if we could not in the future before his graduation, he should transfer to a cheaper in-state public. Luckily, this did not have to happen (due to the “middle class initiative” around 2008?)
When my child went to the grad school, I told him that he will need to take out his loans and we only helped whatever we can – no guarantee on how much. He did. (Well…my wife naively said to him that he would need to borrow $100,000 at the maximum. She is really not financially savvy so I would not blame her – Recently, she is talking about liquidating her tIRA to help pay off some of his Federal Direct loans – go figure how financially savvy she is. LOL. But we have been paying likely $500 per month now to prevent the loans from getting larger ad larger.)
This is ironically refreshing, given the number of times CC is bashed for/accused of being elitist and heavily populated by parents/students who think its ivy or bust.
@Jym, In my definition, any school beyond college is a grad school. LOL. (I just do not like to mention med school for some reason.)
Pushing for A+, depending on the dynamics between the parents and the child, could be “damaging”. I have never asked my child to get A’s, only asked for enough efforts he put in and does not care about the outcome.
This might be an issue of paying attention to what one likes to read, but does the above “limiting” factor not apply to the son? Unless I am mistake, the issue is that the SON does not want to apply to certain types of schools (where he would have to work harder to excel) and has made his mind about attending a more middling school where he can be a big fish and continues his quest for honors and accolade?
Isn’t it the role of a parent to direct (with love, support, and a tad of realism) the decisions of a son who is barely out of puberty? The father has stated in his opening salvo that they “knew what they were doing” and pushed their son towards academic excellence. Are the parents now supposed to abdicate and let the son make decisions for them – as in agreeing to finance the cost of a potentially more expensive education? Have we not (usually) agreed that the parents should be “honest” with their children in terms of being able to pay for the college years?
The issue is not about “Ivy League or HYPS or bust” but about casting a net that represents the culmination of more than a dozen years of studying. If the choice of attending a less prestigious school ends up being the right one, it should be the result of an open-minded process.
The OP has asked what he could do to … open the mind of his son. This is a proxy for asking to consider ALL the options open to a competitive student. The options, however, should be based on the reality and not on “popular” sound bites that follow the biases and previous choices of others.
Lastly, this decision should be made by looking at the next 4-6 years of undergraduate studies, and not include the potential of a “top” graduate school as this last part might be just an illusion and a pipe dream. One step at the time!
There is more than prestige involved! Parts of the equation come from the (intuitive but perhaps flawed) perception that the more prestigious school will be the most expensive. Considering all the publicity related to the financial initiatives at schools such as Harvard and its true peers, one could think that canard has flown away a long time ago.
The reality is quite different. The financial aid often takes the form of simple need-based aid. Competitive academic scholarships exist, but they are mostly the domain of “lesser” schools or very restrictive. Most of us here should know examples how the school that is cheaper on paper turned out to be more expensive when pencil met the proverbial paper. And this does not account for a metric such as ROI on money and … time.
The choice presented as “Ivy or Nothing” versus “Full Ride” at a school that rivals with HYPS is hardly based on the … real world. It could be debated by Nancy Grace or BW as it is simply a never ending fantasy.
My daughter graduated from Harvard in DEC. She could have gotten full merit schlorships at 2 smaller but good schools. We paid every cent of those 4 years. She did have a 3.8 GPA there. I am sorry she chose Harvard over a free ride at a smaller not so elite school. That’s my 2 cents! Some students might have made better use of this education. I know that Harvard looks nice on a resume, and I hope she utilizes these years at some point. She did enjoy her time there, but she might have equally enjoyed a free education as well.
I know. We were full pay for two years. Luckily, not for the other two years.
I am 100% sure that in DS’s freshman/sophomore suite, 3 (out of 6) were full pay for the first two years, and 2 were full pay for 4 years.
It was rumored that a girl in the suite next to DS’s suite has an upscale apartment in Manhattan in her name! The amount of wealth for some families there is amazing. I once joked with DS that he would never run into so many people who are so well off after his graduation from college!
Since I do not know much about his classmates now, I am not sure whether the families of his “grad” school’s classmates are richer or poorer than the counterparts of his UG classes. (But I would not be surprised that 25% would be full pay as well. Yes, their school has the “parents contributions” in their FA just like UGs but it seems they know the parents may not be so “generous” to their child any more after having paid for 4 years for college expenses.)
I agree with Xiggy in that the son is limiting himself by refusing to consider certain schools that may be good possibilities for him. He’s also still a child, and it’s likely his mind will change many times over by the time the options are on the table.
I insisted on certain schools, type of schools, not a lot, just a few, to be on my kids’ lists. Wasn’t going to push them to go there, but I wanted the options available. No telling what changes in circumstances could have happened in six months time, and I wanted certain contingencies covered for at least that time period. And some of my kids did change their minds. One went to one of the add on schools, as it ended up to be the only one offering him an option he really wanted. Discovered upon closer examination. Got some unexpected merit money at some out of range in terms of cost schools. Lots of things happened.
I can think of very few situations in life where limiting your options makes sense. Crossing all Ivy League schools off a college list for a qualified applicant makes as little sense to me as applying to only those top 8 schools.
@Immigrantparent “Remember what Malcom Gladwell said in Outliers.”
Clearly, you have yet to read “David & Goliath” by Gladwell who absolutely espouses NOT going to “Ivy-like” schools over schools where one is more likely to be a bigger fish.
It’s not just about where you can get the best GPA. You also want to think about where you will have the best relationship with faculty, the most opportunities to do undergraduate research and possibly even publish. MacAlester College in Minnesota actually routinely has the most students win National Science Foundation grants for graduate school because their students end up with the most peer-reviewed publications with faculty as a result of their undergraduate research program. If I wanted to end up in a top notch phd program in math or the sciences, I’d go to Macalester.
Or your child could take an intro science class at Harvard with 350 other students where the professor never learns his name, where he has to wait in line for office hours, where his professor routinely travels throughout the semester to important professional conferences while leaving the teaching to the TA or the adjunct. I guarantee you he won’t end up with coauthored peer reviewed publications with a professor. At Harvard, the professor will publish with the grad students, not with the undergrads.
Liberal arts colleges have much better undergraduate research opportunities, hands down. They have summer research opportunities, and a career office that deals exclusively with undergrad students. Your child would get better internships, publications, etc. from a liberal arts college. Fewer bragging rights for you now but more for your child down the line.