My son graduated from Virginia Tech with a degree in Biology and minor in Chemistry (3.2 GPA). He started off in engineering and changed over to Biology which placed him behind the curve preparing for MCATs. So, he has not taken MCATs. We are thinking it would be beneficial for him to attend Pre-Med Post Bacc Program to both build his resume and prepare him to take MCATs.
He just received acceptance into U of Penn and UC Berkley Post Bacc Programs.
I am looking for insights/opinions on attending Post Bacc Programs as a path to Medical School and also which University’s programs might be more helpful.
Wouldn’t he already have had all of the pre-med courses as a biology major, and therefore have had the course work tested on the MCAT?
Also, wouldn’t he need a considerable amount of additional college course work with a 4.0 GPA in order to bring his overall college GPA to a range where an MD medical school in the US is not a long shot. This can be expensive in a post-bacc program at a four year school (particularly a private or out-of-state public).
Obviously, our biggest concern is whether his undergrad GPA will inevitably hold him back from being accepted into Med School. However, he truly wants to pursue medicine specifically Ophthalmology.
Because he changed majors halfway through his undergrad, he had to spend a good deal of his time taking core biology classes when he would have normally prepared for MCATs. So, he graduated VT in four years with all required science classes. But, he didn’t take his MCATs.
Our thought was to have him take classes that would do the following:
Prep for MCATs (you typically have to pay extra for prep classes anyway even if your not in a Post Bacc program)
Permit him an opportunity to focus upon fewer classes where he could produce a higher GPA.
Show a commitment to pursuing medicine
Provide more time to build his resume. He would also be able to pursue research during his Post Bacc whihc would also prep him for MCATs.
Ultimately, I am not sure if performing well in Post Bacc program and MCATs would outweigh a 3.2 GPA in undergrad.
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he had to spend a good deal of his time taking core biology classes when he would have normally prepared for MCATs
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I think you may be over-estimating the time students spend preparing for the MCAT. My son spent zero time preparing for the MCAT. I know that’s not typical, but I think a more typical student spends some of his summer doing some practice tests.
Why were his grades so modest?
Usually, when undergrad GPA is low, then time is the best solution. The more time that is put between undergrad and applying, the better.
Ophthalmology is a competitive residency. What will your son do if he can’t do that specialty?
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Ultimately, I am not sure if performing well in Post Bacc program and MCATs would outweigh a 3.2 GPA in undergrad.
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Well, it may be his only path to his desired goal.
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just received acceptance into U of Penn and UC Berkley Post Bacc Programs.
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How much does the UPenn program cost? How much does the UC Berkeley program cost? Does he have to borrow to pay for that?
What classes are in a postbacc that weren’t already taken as a bio major??? I thought those were for students who didn’t take the premed prereqs.
Maybe he just needs to do grade-repair at a local school and apply to DO schools.
Posting on this thread since it has more replies, maybe WOWMom’s post can be ported into here.
3.2 GPAs are basically what grade enhancing post-baccs/SMPs were made for. I can’t speak to any specific post-baccs but a good MCAT, doing well in a post-bacc, and having all the other bells and whistles can certainly make up for a 3.2 UG GPA.
My only specific advice would be try to minimize the amount of loans your son needs to take out for the post-bacc. Med school is very expensive and there will be little or no aid except for loans.
ETA: opthalmology is extremely difficult to match into. Your son has to be top performer in med school nationally (board scores, grades, AOA, specialty-specific research with publications, outstanding LORs from opthalmology preceptors and program directors). Only about 70% of those who apply for optho match into it. If he wouldn’t be happy in family medicine or general internal medicine (primary care), he shouldn’t consider med school—period.
ETA: Berkeley is largely an on-line program and because of that really doesn’t provide strong LORs for applicants. Does your son have LOR writers lined up at his undergrad?
ETA: performance at the post bacc is critical. Anything below a 3.8 GPA in the post bacc isn’t going help his admission prospects and in fact may actually hurt them.
BTW, you 're misunderstanding a few things.
A post-bacc does NOT typically offer MCAT-specific prep courses as part of the overall program, just upper level coursework. If you son wants a MCAT prep class, he'll still need to pay for one.
Research does NOTHING to prepare a student for the MCAT. Research is a totally separate and unrelated issue.
Was it the two years he spent as an engineering major that brought down his GPA? Did your son have good grades in Bio and Chemistry classes? That could be a consideration. Above all else he needs TOP MCAT scores–not just “good” MCAT scores, and he should do whatever (prep courses, self-study books, etc.) it takes to get the best scores possible. If he has some sort of compelling story/essay, significant volunteer work, demonstrated leadership, demonstrated compassion, work experience/lab/research, great recommendations, etc. his application will be viewed more favorably. He pretty much needs a 4.0 or near 4.0 in the post-bac program. I would look for ones associated with his in-state med schools if possible. It will be hard. He has to give 110% to test prep and 110% to post bac courses/4.0 – at the same time. Good luck to him!
Eng’g grades aren’t BCMP, so what is his BCMP GPA?
What grades did he get in:
Gen Chem I and II
Bio I and II
Ochem I and II
Physics I and II
Calc I
I’m still confused as to what classes he’d take in a post bacc since he already has his science classes. Post baccs are for graduates who decided late to apply to med school, and therefore don’t have the premed prereqs.
I don’t know how the app process works for those post-bacc programs, but why would they accept someone who already has the classes unless they were re-taking the classes for a DO program.
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Berkeley is largely an on-line program and because of that really doesn’t provide strong LORs for applicants. Does your son have LOR writers lined up at his undergrad?
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Of the grade enhancing type, there are several flavors:
–some have students re-take undergrad coursework or take additional undergrad coursework (goal: improve UG GPA)
–some are a combination of upperlevel bio classes and grad classes
–some are actual MS degree granting programs
–some are SMPs (Special Master’s Programs), which are essentially taking the first year of med school coursework alongside actual med students (and being compared against them)
The goal of the latter 3 is to present proof that a student is capable of working at a very high level successfully.
Most post-baccs are big money-makers for bio depts.
Gen Chem I = A
Gen Chem II = B
Bio I and II = scored 5 on AP exam to test out of these classes
Ochem = B
Ochem II = B
Physics = B
Physics II = A-
Calc I = scored 5 on AP exam to test out of this class
You are really helping put things into perspective for me…thanks!
I believe my son initially didn’t really look past undergrad program and didn’t accept how competitive it would be to get into Med School. He was also active with internships, volunteering and being a chapter board member for Unite for Sight (a non-profit medical organization that raises funds for the underprivileged), etc… But, then again, all other Med School candidates have similar resumes…
In any case, outside of his modest GPA, he has built a decent resume. Nothing published yet. But, this would probably happen while being involved in research if he chooses to attend Post Bacc at Penn. He does have three solid LORs which he had to submit to both Post Bacc programs.
He is still waiting to hear back from George Mason/Georgetown Post Bacc which if he stayed in for two years would produce MS degree in Physiology. Cost is roughly $30K for 8 course units. So, $60K for a Master’s degree.
By the way, cost for Penn Post Bacc is $29K for 8 course units or 24 credits. Berkley’s costs are much lower at $9K for equivalent course units, but housing/travel expenses would be significantly higher.
We are now leaning away from Berkley’s program due to the challenges of obtaining LORs.
Would you think that even if he excelled in Post Bacc program (4.0 or near GPA and strong MCAT score) and didn’t get into Med School that attending Post Bacc would help him secure a better career opportunity? Obviously, obtaining a MS degree would help his career. But, I’m just trying to justify the investment if he didn’t get into Med School. I would hate to simply donate to a school’s Biology department.
Don’t hold your breath on getting a publication. Research is unpredictable. And different PIs have different thresholds for adding student names to a paper.
A MS in bio is a pretty useless degree. There are billions and billions of them out there in the job market . (For that matter a bio PhD is also pretty useless since there aren’t nearly enough industry or academic positions open to absorb each year’s crop of new doctoral grads. The biomedical research institute where I work–non-profit, non-academic–hires bio PhDs as lab techs–errr, post docs-- @$45k-60K year.)
Unless your son has some sort of unique, desirable lab, analytic or programming skill, a MS in bio won’t significantly improve his job prospects. The purpose of grade enhancing post-bacc is not to improve the marketability of its grads, but to improve their chances at getting admitted to a medical school.
Your son needs to seriously think about a Plan B. All pre-med hopefuls need a Plan B. Both of my kidlets had one. D1 would have applied to PhD programs in medical physics; D2 would have applied for MS or MPH in biostatistics/epidemiology with an eye on an eventual PhD in health policy planning or epidemiology.
And a question:
Would your son consider attending a DO program?
AACOMAS allows for retakes so that only the most recent grade counts in the GPA. Also math is not included in the sGPA calculations.
He could do some ala carte retakes at a local college for much less than a formal post-bacc and let osteopathic grade replacement work its magic on his GPA/sGPA. He would need to shadow a DO because many DO schools require a LOR from a practicing physician (preferably an osteopathic physician, but some schools will accept a MD LOR).
<a href="http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/applying">http://www.aacom.org/become-a-doctor/applying</a>
Presumably, he has upper level biology courses as a biology major, and math courses more advanced than calculus 1 as a former engineering major. What is his GPA for all biology, chemistry, physics, and math (BCPM) courses?
Whether or not an engineering course is BCPM or not can depend.
see p39-40 AMCAS instructions
The department offering the course is typically not a factor in the course classification. For example, a course should be classified as Biology if the primary content is biology, regardless of which department offers the course.
The following guide provides examples of how course are often categorized. Please select course classifications based on the primary content of the course. In the case of interdisciplinary courses, where two or more subject matters are combined into one course, refer to the description of the course on your school’s website or consult with your pre-health advisor to choose the most appropriate course classification.
If the course content, for example a biomedical engineering course, is 50% or more “Biology” content, then you should classify the course as “Biology” rather than “Engineering”. You should be prepared to provide AMCAS with a syllabus, lecture topics and/or catalog description if you are challenged on your classification during the verification process.
IMHO, you should avoid any correspondent/online schools as a post bacc student. I know several kids went to Georgetown’s SMP program, which is probably the best in the industry. Even that, you need to be in the top 25% to get a crack at a medical school.
Based on the BCMP gpa published in the above, it is very unlikely he will get all As in the post bacc program, without that, it is very difficult to become a physician, MD or DO. I think plan B should be in the works, if the post bacc is unsuccessful(ie, some Bs in the first semester), he should start execute plan B, such as PA, PT, NP, biostat or MPH. You do not need to be a physician to stay in the healthcare industry.
AMCAS makes the final decision about how courses are classified, not the student. AMCAS can and sometimes does reclassified science courses as non-science and non-science (engineering) as science.