Paying younger students for achieving

Parent Cafe
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<p>This is a sensitive issues with lots of different opinions and angles. I am inclined to agree with ScottZ1980 (post #11), with one slight twist. Our society tends to reward outcome more than effort. I would encourage both. Some people have stronger internal drive/motivation, and others prefer external rewards. Neither is right or wrong-- they are just different styles. Acknowledging and rewarding effort, even if the outcome isn’t as superb as we’d like, will encourge the person to keep trying. Effort usually leads to a good outcome eventually-- we just have to shape up the behavior a bit.</p>

<p>Ther is something called the Premack Principle in psychology-- complete the lesser desired actvity for the opportunity to do the greater desired activity (ie clean up your room and then you can go to the concert). People do this all the time. It is a reward. Money is a reward. The other plattitude I use is that our vocation provides us with the funds to pursue our avocation (ie work to earn $$ to pursue hobbies). Hopefully people work in an area they enjoy, but they also have greater passions outside the workplace. To teach someone to be successful in part by rewarding both effort and outcome, so as to eventually earn $$ to pursue their dreams is fine by me. </p>

<p>Teriwtt- Thanks for finding that article. I am off to read today’s Atlanta paper to find the full article. I am disturbed by the comments of the GA State professor. Statements like this

are simply absurd, and make me embarassed to live in the same state as this professor. He may teach in the Educational Policy Dept. but he has a lot to learn about other aspects of education. Simply put, I think that being creative-- coming up with extrinsic motivators to stay in school and get an education is worth it. Without the education these students will be in minimum wage jobs, un- or under-employed, or possibly finding alternative sources of legal or illegal income. And this line

Is this supposed to be a BAD thing?? Good grief.</p>

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<p>“The children showed an initial interest in an activity (e.g. painting), and then some were offered rewards for participating in the activity. The ones who were offered the reward for doing something they liked, weeks later were no longer interested in the activity.”</p>

<p>Assuming that this pattern holds true with older subjects, the subjects we’re talking about (high school students) are intimately familiar with the activity (schoolwork), and have already made up their minds that they don’t like it and don’t want to do it unless someone makes them. So there’s no danger of quashing their initial interest…there isn’t any.</p>

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<p>^^^ Correct, Hanna. The difference here, now, is that they are rewarding a behavior that is not liked, or is not one in which the students are already participating. If I recall, the 70’s study correctly, they used m&ms to reward kids for doing an activity. If they stop offering the reward abruptly (rather than, say increasing the time required or amount of output required to earn the m&ms) it feels like a punishment. It has to do with principles of internal and external locus of control, attribution theory and all that. Going into detail would bore everyone to tears. Consider the lack of detail a reward!</p>

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<p>My dad, the clinical psychologist came up with the following plan for his son (my step bro) who is very bright but was not very motivated to excel. After my dad told me about it, I tried following it with my kids…two of whom were not so much motivated to get “A’s”, though they were certainly capable; and one of whom consistently did get straight A’s. I do believe it helped. Note: if a student worked as hard as he/she could and achieved a “C”, I would change this…</p>

<p>Plan, per reporting period which meant once per semester in HS:
1 A; rest B’s = $5 PER A or $5
2 A’s; rest B’s = $10 PER A 0r $20
3 A’s; rest B’s= $15 PER A or $45
4 A’s; rest B’s = $20 PER A 0r $80
5 A’s; one B = $25 PER A or $125
6 A’s (all A’s) = $30 PER A or $180</p>

<p>ANY number of C’s in a semester meant NO MONEY.</p>

<p>Obviously this rewards for consistently doing one’s best on every subject and imposes negative consequences for not caring about doing mediocre work (which had been a significant issue for one of our kids).</p>

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<p>After reading through this whole thread and thinking I was completely off-base, I come to churchmusicmom’s thread which is almost identical to what we are doing with D2 (with a few subtle differences)…she too, for some odd reason, is not motivated to excel at anything; either academic or extracurricular…if it was up to her, she would socialize 24/7…If we have to do this for two years (she’s entering 10th grade) so be it, and, yes, I am a secondary school teacher so I am well aware of the negatives of this undertaking…But her grades last year were dismal and she’s running out of time to get her act together without an incentive…</p>

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<p>I’m curious how parents who use rewards for "A"s feel about students being allowed to submit extra credit projects to bring their grade up, and if they’ve ever encountered students “begging” for grades. (“Begging” was a new one on me. It never happened in my time/place, but it’s so prevalent - maybe it’s a reflection on kids who don’t take “no” for an answer - that one teacher in our school has a policy of adding a point to each students end of term grade. That way no one has to ask her - everyone gets it, end of discussion. I think it’s genius on her part.) </p>

<p>I do object to ‘extra credit’ in high school. If you don’t master the material, you shouldn’t earn the top grade.</p>

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<p>We’ve dealt with this in certain ways. First, my mom has always given my kids a reward (as she did with me) for good report cards. When I was a kid, if she liked the report card, i went to the book shop and picked out whatever I wanted. Great motivation for me. She gives my kids a little cash for great report cards, which they liked, but it was always being fussed over that was the real reward. My daughter has also struck a deal with her dad in that if she gets a full tuition scholarship or above, he will buy her a safe, appropriate, late-model used car. </p>

<p>When my son was in second grade we were having trouble getting him to do his homework and do well in school. We took away everything but his clothes and that didn’t work. We found that he wanted to take karate classes in the worst way, so we bribed him. We sent in a weekly calendar and the teacher indicated whether the homework was done completely and whether or not he was putting in good effort. When he had three straight months of excellent work (as certified by the teacher), he was entitled to begin karate on probation. He’s never stepped out of line again and is now a red belt in karate. No regrets at all.</p>

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<p>mathmom—I read that same Alfie Kohn book last year and it transformed my parenting! I know not everything he says is on the mark (in his various other publications, for example, he completely discounts inherent gender differences) but this one was a winner. I ripped up my 6 yo’s ‘point sheet’ (for rewards) & she is doing so much better (likes learning). It’s harder to come up w/replacements for bribes & rewards (& is most often individual to the child) but the effort is ultimately worth it (not saying those who do bribes are not exerting effort…I just found a better methodology, for us…)</p>

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<p>I was bribed to do well in school starting 7th grade. My mother gave me $20 an A (and this was in the 70’s, where $20 per A every 6 weeks or however often the report cards came was a pretty big amount to an 11-year-old), so I got all A’s ($140 each report card) for awhile, but then decided it wasn’t worth the extra work to get all A’s and “slacked” (still graduating high school with a decent GPA, but not valedictorian level, but in my high school, only two people in my class had a 4.0, so I had good company). I felt I lead a rather spoiled, princess life in childhood and have gone on to do the same, and while I am happy being a bum, I doubt most parents here would want their own children to not “give much to society” (I give a little through volunteer work, but really rather little). This isn’t to say all children who are bribed will be adults who just enjoy life and don’t earn a living in adulthood, as most won’t go that route (most probably won’t even have that option), but it’s one example for you all the same.</p>

<p>For research on the topic, though, I suggest the book by Alfie Kohn “Punished By Rewards”. I read this when our son was very young and felt it a very good read, so good that it was the only book I’ve ever begged my husband to read. I tried to get him to read it with me by sharing with him what I felt a really interesting story (though it wasn’t based on a true story, like the research in the book is)…</p>

<p>An old man was being given a hard time by some kids who walked by his home each day on their way to school. One day, he got this idea and told the boys, “Starting tomorrow, I’m going to pay each of you a dollar if you give me a hard time.” And they thought the man nuts, but came back even earlier the next day and gave him a hard time, and each got a dollar. He then said, “Tomorrow, I’ll pay you 25 cents for your trouble.” The kids thought that still a pretty good deal, and turned out to taunt him. He paid them each a quarter and said, “From now on, I’ll only give you a penny for doing this.”</p>

<p>The kids said, “A penny?! Forget it!”</p>

<p>What was originally fun for the kids, with no pay, became a chore not worth doing once money had been brought into the picture and slowly reduced.</p>

<p>Anyway, read that book, and anything else you can find on punishments and rewards and see what you conclude. I concluded long ago that the best reward is being happy with what you’ve done (or not done in cases such as telling lies, cheating, stealing, etc.) and the “best punishment” (if there can even be such things as good rewards and punishments at all) is being unhappy with what you’ve done (or not done).</p>

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<p>One other thing, for those considering using rewards for grades and such, especially using a sliding payment scale for certain grades - be sure the student isn’t going to be tempted to cheat to get the higher grades/increased pay. I never cheated to get my A’s or anything else as I cheated once in my life at the start of 4th grade when the teacher asked everyone to list all the states they could and I went blank before hitting 50 and felt like a dip and so looked at Neil’s paper as he was brilliant and sitting right next to me…as it turned out, that exercise didn’t count for any grade, but was the teacher’s way of seeing what the class knew going into 4th grade, and I felt so guilty for having cheated, despite never getting caught, that I decided to never do that again, and never did. So my mom didn’t have a concern about me cheating to get the A’s/$20 bills, but I read years ago that something like 70% of college students surveyed at a top school admitted to cheating in school (and have seen something similar in a survey done of National Honor Society members), and so it’s clearly a concern for more than most would probably guess.</p>

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<p>^^^ I think this is the same book thats been mentioned 2 or 3 times in this thread by mathmom and Jolynne Smyth.</p>

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<p>OK…curious to know what all of you who never offer(ed) monetary or other rewards to your kids for grades did/do with an underachiever who wants to excel at sinking three pointers and making tackles but not on getting As and Bs. </p>

<p>I am not picking a fight here I really want to get some help motivating my capable, kind, adorable boy. It isn’t really very helpful to tell me that kids should be internally motivated. As a high school teacher I kind of know that. What would be useful is some concrete advice that I can put into place. thanks</p>

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<p>HM-How old is your son? Nevermind. I see he’s 13.</p>

<p>thinking…</p>

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<p>It’s hard to make suggestions without knowing much about your son’s study habits and how he uses his spare time. Does he spend time practicing basketball when he would be better off using it to study? Where do you think the problem is? While I would never eliminate a sport, or any other activity my kid was passionate about in order to improve his grades, I might look at the amount of time spent doing each activity and see if there are imbalances that could be corrected. If homework is being rushed in order to get to more fun things, I’d insist on a certain amount of study time per day, and if he ran out of homework during that time frame, he could read study ahead, but not shoot hoops until the time was up. I’d make sure he has a great place to study with no distractions (computer, tv or siblings). I’d also schedule a conference with any teachers you think would be sympathetic and ask for their advice and support. I’d have several conversations with him to find out what he thinks might help him get the kind of grades that would allow him to have many choices in his future, and I’d also ask him what kind of grades he thinks he should be getting. How does he see himself in 5 years? Where does he want to be, and what does he want to be doing?</p>

<p>As a teacher, you know that all kids are different and respond to different approaches. I think your son is the one who knows best what would motivate him. What does he say?</p>

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<p>historymom-
I think your questions are extremely valid. We all respond to incentives and rewards, even if the “reward” is just in the form of praise, a trophy or a certificate. Sometimes, for those who are not intrinsically motivated, the external incentive has to be stronger to ilicit the desired response. Telling a kid that you’ll let them go to bed 1/2 later or will read them a story or they can earn ugio or pokemon cards if they get ready on time may be rewarding to a young child, where as renting a video or xbox game may be rewarding for a slightly older child. Then, when the child gets old enough to want to select thgeir own reward, a “token economy” is not unreasonable (ie earn tokens or points or what have you). In many cases the “tokens” are in the form of coins or bills ($$). This is all along the same continuum, and is, IMO, reasonable.</p>

<p>Now if the reward is way in excess of what the situation calls for (ie a trip to Disneyworld for an A or 2) the child doesnt place value in what they did, only in the reward. In the psychology field that has to do with cognitive dissonance (again boring to go into detail about). But if the reward is at a level consistent with the activity, then the person does place value in their accomplishment.</p>

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<p>Historymom, is the problem that your son is doing poorly (D’s & F’s) … or that he just isn’t doing as well as he could (B’s & C’s instead of A’s)?</p>

<p>Because if it is the latter: I left my kids alone. My son was a ~B student in 8th grade - he got his real motivation in high school, in 10th grade. I was happy with the B’s and I was even happier with the A’s. There was no pressure, no fights, and my son became more motivated as he matured.</p>

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<p>Calmom-
She described him as a capable underachiever. So, it sounds like he has the ability. Kids need to be taught responsibility just as we teach them other skills.</p>

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<p>A side story-- Older s has always been more intrinsically motivated. He has inner drive to do well. He is also generally more cooperative and easy going. Younger son has the ability, but his passion isnt academics- it is social. I wanted to go with him to get new shoes the other day-- suggested a store that would have a good selection (and I wanted to get something at the same store as well).He hemmed and haw’ed and stalled and complained that I take too long when I shop (which is probably valid), until I mentioned that the store was near his favorite sub shop, and that we could go there after we got the shoes. Done. Bingo. That motivated him to go. So did I bribe him? Maybe. Did we need lunch? Yes. Did I get done what I wanted and did he get a great pair of Timberland shoes at a great price over our tax-free shopping weekend? Yes. And I got what I wanted and am wearing it as I type. Win, win. Just have to find the right incentive to get the desired end result. </p>

<p>Oh, and he picked out 2 pairs of pants for school while I got what I wanted. All worked out in the end, but the struggle to get him to comply was lessened with the offer of the sub sandwich. Could I have offered him $5? It probably would have been cheaper (sub for him, salad for me and drinks cost $15 at this place!)</p>

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<p>I’ve been following this thread with great interest. I have two daughters - older one is just a total beast when it comes to academics and always has been. Younger one (starting 9th this fall) has comparable ability (if you believe IQ tests) but throughout middle school has been an A-/B+ student. I have had a hard time figuring out how to parent her. I feel as if she could equal, even surpass her sister (she is extremely talented in math). But her performance thus far is hardly bad. She is really a very good student, just not one of the super stars winning the academic awards in her middle school.</p>

<p>I just go round and round trying to figure out whether or not I should push her a bit. When I try that it feels really wrong, as if I’m overtly comparing her to the older sister. And it doesn’t seem to affect her performance.</p>

<p>Can’t help but notice most posts on here have the younger sibling, not the first-born, having motivation problems. It just bugs me terribly that something like birth order could be so deterministic in our kids’ trajectories.</p>

<p>Sometimes I actually think D2 might have a slight learning disability. She tests extremely high in reading comprehension but reads extremely slowly. Thus homework takes her a long time.</p>

<p>FWIW - we have never paid for grades. We just do lots of whooping and hugging and dancing when they’re good and are kind of low-key when they’re not so good. I don’t think our approach is that great. D2 is not getting the grades she is capable of.</p>

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<p>We let DS#2 drive dads convertible to school for a day if he studied for the PSAT and made NMSF. Worked, and we are saving $8k in college tuition. Win, win.</p>