<p>One comment on the idea of rewards backfiring…in the case of our younger son I think he may have initially underperformed largely to differentiate himself from hard working older son. Older son was always being heaped with praise and he wanted to opt out of the competition. An unintended consequence of this opting out was that he got increasingly behind in high school as he could no longer just show up to understand the material. He started getting dropped from honors classes and his self-esteem started a downward trajectory. Lack of effort led to lack of knowledge which led to genuine belief that he just wasn’t that smart (all of which we knew was not true but couldn’t convince him of this). </p>
<p>Anyway, when we finally found an incentive that did work, his grades came up sharply. The improvement in grades increased his self-esteem and had numerous other positive consequences. As a result, he has now become self-motivated. For example, he says he intends to get A’s in calculus and physics this year and we aren’t offering any incentives. We could never undo the seeing friends things at this point and wouldn’t even try and he knows that.(He has also finally started reading for fun on his own–different story.) </p>
<p>So while rewards may not work long-term, even a short-term positive impact can make a big difference long-term. This unmotivated second son is now saying he plans to major in Biometric Systems Engineering, which I had initially discouraged as just way too much work for an unmotivated kid. His comment was that if S1 could handle systems engineering (which is his major), then he knows he can too. We still seem to have trouble getting away from the competitive thing these two have going (and we do try to discourage it), but I do know if S2 hadn’t had such a successful Junior year, he would still be thinking he was dumb and that is no longer the case.</p>
<p>Mammall my d (youngest of three…two older bros) is an example to the contrary. She was by far the most consistent of my three kids in achieving to the best of her ability. In fact, my oldest was the most problematic in this area. He turned out well, though, and is now a HS English teacher and does an excellent job with his students!!</p>
<p>If it helps, my oldest was also the least motivated. But only in school. He works hard at everything else in life. Which, in the end, turned out okay. And honestly, it wouldn’t have mattered how much we paid him, he was still unmotivated in school. Sometimes we just have to accept them for what they are.</p>
<p>If the child is getting Ds or Fs, and you know he or she is capable with no learning issues, I think you need to think of consequences rather than incentives. The Ds and Fs of a capable child represent a failure to do homework and pay attention in class. Privileges are just that, they are not their birthright. There is a very humorous episode of Malcom in the Middle, where the parents are trying to discipline their very badly behaved second son. They take away many activities and privileges and he just does not care so his behavior does not change. Then they realize he loves to cook and the bar him from cooking. He steps right back into line. Sometimes you just need to really take a look at what your child loves to do and tie that to the behavior you want to encourage. </p>
<p>If you see the child working and they study for tests and do not cut classes, and they still get Ds or worse, they may need assistance in learning strategies or perhaps an intervention with the teacher.</p>
<p>You might want to read at least the beginning chapters of Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. He talks about not being good in school, much to the chagrin of his father, a school principal. Yet he was encouraged in the things he did like, and how that actually helped him more in life than good grades would have - he learned early to play to his strengths. I found it an interesting read.</p>
<p>hm, at our house it’s do what we need to do than what we want to do. That would mean taking care of schoolwork first, then he can do what he wants with the sports.</p>
<p>I do understand the dilemma of push or not to push. The only time i really pushed was with my then-seventh-grader last year. He wanted to take algebra like his older brother did, and I tried to discouage him. But, he wanted to do it because all his friends were. I finally relented and said the only condition was that he had to make an A because this was going on his hs transcript. Well. first six weeks comes and he has a 90, second six weeks comes and, well, he wished he had a 90. So, I said I was going to transfer him out of the class, and he threw a fit. I pointed out to him that he hadn’t gone to any tutoring and he rushes through his homework and spends so much time playing soccer, etc. He knew I was serious about dropping the class because I didn’t want him in it anyway. Well, after tears and saying he’d rather drop soccer than get out of this class (huh???) I gave him one more six weeks to get the grade up. Not surprisingly to me, he had the highest grade in the class the next semester. I KNEW he had it in him and sometimes they really do need a push.</p>
<p>Chedva:
I agree with encouraging interests and pursuing passions. My mantra in raising my children has been “feed the interest”. However, in my prior post I was talking about slacking off. I do view it as disrespectful for my child to not do assigned homework or goof off in class. You really must take a good look at your kid to judge how to approach the issue. As in the Malcom in the Middle Example, after getting the kid to tow the line, I would pay for cooking classes. Not every kid is an academic superstar and parents must accept that fact. Yet learning to give your best effort and to work hard is a very good lesson for all children. And while there are awards and trophies for sports, there are few for being a good student, thus my approach with the token reward for As (of course I know they are capable).
The beginning of Seven Habits also gives a wonderful perspective on acceptance of a child’s capabilities and interests.</p>
<p>I think kids want to please their parents and work hard, but as they advance through school, I think there is more liklihood that they will have a class that they don’t know how to approach homework, where the teacher is unclear with what is expected, where the classroom is disruptive and kids don’t get a chance to ask q’s.</p>
<p>I think even without a learning disability communication is essential with the teacher. You would be amazed at how many subs they have, who don’t get everyone at roll call, who forget to collect homework ( and later on , the student may have forgotten about it when teacher returns).</p>
<p>Find out what they are being graded on- even though my daughter had a diagnosed disability that affected her performance on tests, not comprehension of material or classroom performance, her grades were often heavily weighted to test scores.
I couldn’t get them to change that- so I had to accept her grades were not going to be representative of how hard she worked or her mastery of the material.</p>
<p>I think the issues and dynamics associated with parents rewarding their children and school systems doing so are very different. </p>
<p>Except for top-flight students, the social rewards in communities for low-income students in low-income communities improving performance are often not very great, and certainly don’t accrue until college at the earliest (and many of them won’t be able to afford it in any case, even if performance improves from lousy to submediocre.) Under such circumstances, societal (as opposed to familial) rewards might make some sense. (But I have to think about it a bit more.)</p>
<p>Thank you all for your insight. There are many valid points here that will help DH and I come to a conclusion re. what to do. I like the advice that suggested we tell him “you will spend “x” amount of time on homework. If you finish you will spend the remainder of the time reading.” DS,DH and I could work that out together.</p>
<p>calmom to quickly respond, He always has an A in PE and usually a B in either social studies or science…never both at once. The rest are Cs. He has brought home progress reports with Ds but hasn’t had a trimester report card with them. There are consequences for Ds and Fs</p>
<p>jym Thanks. Isn’t “Cognitive Dissonace” a disconnect or lack of harmony between what is and what should logically be? Drawing on my intro to psych course from 1981. Also, be sure that I am very interested in your posts. Glad you like the shoes. </p>
<p>Chedva…the Kyosakis are both on our book shelf and I do think about their point of view a lot. I know a college education immediately following a high school education is not the only avenue to financial success. I just want him to have all his options available to him so He can decide, not his GPA.</p>
<p>Or to make a child like a behavior they might otherwise not, take it away like it was something to cherish. So often parents take away computer time and TV as punishment when children are little. I think if you are going to do the “take away” route, you might be better off taking away BOOKS.</p>
<p>The only things coming to mind that I can see helping the underachiever to excel at anything (sports of academics or social charm or whatever) and those are practice and insight, with the combination yielding the best results. So if a person is having trouble learning math, making a basket, getting a date for a movie, whatever, you help the person to realize it’s ALL a “numbers game” - and the more you are “in the game”, the better your odds at success. Now some people don’t like to do things alone, so if you have a kid who hates to read on their own, have a time each night for reading for you AND the kid (different books or the same one). If the kid wants to be better at basketball, put a hoop up in your driveway or hire a coach or hook the kid up with a strong player who can give him some tips (perhaps in exchange for him helping with some skill he has that the basketball player could use some tips with). And explain to the kid that they are more liking to reap what they sow than to win the lottery (in other words, that luck is part of the equation in how things turn out, but usually a rather small part, and even then, often is “luck” that you made by doing something, like being in the game more to have a “lucky streak” or whatever).</p>
<p>historymom, if you feel that your son is capable of better, but just not putting in effort, maybe you can simply tell him that if he wants to play sports in high school he will need to maintain a 3.0 average. I did tell my son that he would need a 3.0 if he wanted to drive, because I knew that was the cutoff for the good student discount from our insurance company. (But it turned out my son didn’t like driving, and does really like walking, so car-as-motivator didn’t mean much).</p>
<p>The advantage of this approach is that it really is the same the high school and colleges employ – athletes need to maintain a minimum GPA – even though a 3.0 is a somewhat higher bar. At the same time, its pretty reasonable for a capable student.</p>
<p>Hi historymom! You mean you actually read my posts, liked them and asked questions? Wow- its like winning the trifecta :D</p>
<p>Yes, cognitive dissonance, and its converse, cognitive a$$onance (yes, really) have to do with the agreement or disagreement between what you already know or believe, and when new info comes in that has to be merged with or dealt with it. My favorite experiment was one in which students in one group were paid $50 to fill out some long boring form, whereas the second group were paid $1 to fill out the same form. When asked how important the students felt their contributions were on the forms, the students who only got paid a buck rated their contributions as more important (why else would they fill out this long thing other than perhaps for the freshman psych 105 lab credit-- certainly not for the buck) but the students who were paid $50 rated their importance lower-- they did it for the $$$. So, perhaps the point here is that rewards are good, but if the reward is way in excess of what the situation calls for, the person may not value or own their success.</p>
Thanks. Isn’t “Cognitive Dissonace” a disconnect or lack of harmony between what is and what should logically be? Drawing on my intro to psych course from 1981. Also, be sure that I am very interested in your posts. Glad you like the shoes. </p>