They are defending rape culture. Rape culture is still the status quo.
A lot of folks don’t believe in rape culture. We can call it something else. I don’t care what we name it if we just change it.
The Philadelphia magazine interview is priceless – link and another quote below (Onward State reported pieces of it but Phl did the interview). I like Penn State as a school – I really do think they offer a lot – but I feel like there is a culture problem. Maybe that’s what happens when you have a school that is SO big or such a big % of students are focused on partying, football etc. I know someone will jump in and say “THON” – but honestly raising money for cancer as one activity doesn’t absolve the university from absolutely anything and everything else that happens on its campus. Hopefully this one frat’s behavior is a true exception to the rest of PSU’s culture – even the people commenting on Onward State (current students and recent alums) are saying KDR is known as a shady frat.
KDR member: I don’t think that something like this should be reported … as spectacularly and scandalously and widespread as it has been. It’s minor. There’s misdemeanors every day, thousands and thousands of little misdemeanors in every single community in the United States, and this is no different. This is a few select individuals who did a few select … possibly or probably inappropriate things, right? So along with thousands and thousands of other people, just in this community of State College, it should be reported no differently, if at all. A little citation, where all the rest of that content goes, not the front page of CNN, of The New York Times, and so forth.
I for one am furious that this kid had the audacity to justify the Frat’s behavior. I am furious because I am spending big bucks on OOS tuition to send my daughter there and these idiots are further tarnishing a good school’s reputation. There are a lot of serious minded students there, kids that work hard but also want to have some fun… which does not include “porn” or “rape.” I just took a peek at Penn State’s Yik Yak the general feeling of the students there are shame and embarrassment. They too are furious.
I understood you the first time. I don’t think that a fraternity member who joined the group but didn’t really look at or post to the group should be expelled. Private FB groups can be set up so that they cannot be viewed by people who are not members. There is little to no chance of a random person viewing the content.
You are apparently very eager to expel fraternity members. I would rather see a young person rehabilitated if possible, regardless of his or her Greek affiliation or absence thereof.
ahl, I think many if not most women have stories like that from the 80s and before. Each of us could probably write a book.
Dstark, he could lose his license now, but not so sure about then. If my boss had mentioned his name, I think I would have turned him in regardless of the law. Let him defend himself.
Actually, to lighten the mood, some of the old fossils we had to deal with never learned, but some did. I was assisting on the account of a Fortune 500 client when I first started out after college and had to deliver something to the client at his office. (His office was intimidating - the size of a tennis court and carpet so thick I couldn’t see my feet!). This was a guy in his 60s. When I appeared at his office door, he glared at me and went into this rant about never having had to deal with women before, and now having a girl on the team. When he was done, I smiled and said “So this is your first time? Don’t worry - I’ll be gentle.” I put the package on his desk and walked out.
So I got back to our office and went straight to the office of the department head to tell him I probably had just lost the account for us. I told him the story and apologized. He went pretty upset with me. Then his secretary told him the client was on the phone. I was doomed. My boss hung up the phone and told me the client said I was great because I stuck up for myself, I’d stick up for him too. Turned out the client was fantastic, he just needed to be shown the brave new world wasn’t so bad.
The Penn State response was weak. This is a top story on national news, and they sent a University VP to announce that they are doing absolutely nothing so far. Just a bunch of bureaucrats playing CYA while President Baron cowered in the corner.
Props to the President of UVA, and the President of University of Oklahoma. They were assertive, public, and front and center and setting a tone that made it clear that they will not tolerate inappropriate behavior on their campuses.
I understand the desire to allow due process. However, the President can still set an appropriate tone and message that if they rules are broken, it will be dealt with seriously. He can also ask people who know anything to come forward. Instead he seemed to take the ostrich approach.
If the student had taken this to the University police, I would bet that this would have been completely covered up. I believe that Penn State hired this guy who was at Florida State and looked the other way to keep Jameis Winston on the football field. Then a few months ago he was whining about the Freeh report and how unfair it was.
It appears that Penn State has brought in a guy who has extensive experience at deflecting, obfuscating, and not taking action. To me that is a shameful. They should have brought in a straight shooter who will run a clean ship, but they appear to have made a different decision. We will see, but it does not look promising.
M2L, it’s worked for them to date. Penn State got whacked with a big penalty after the football /child abuse issue, and the penalty kind of melted away after a short time.
James Franklin was actually the football coach at Vanderbilt before Penn State.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Franklin_(American_football_coach)
Everybody takes pictures of nude unconscious women (and, um, how did those unconscious women get nude?) and then posts the pictures on the internet? Really?
And it’s only “satire”. Does he know what satire is? What an idiot.
“Yeah everyone does it… Know how I know? Because all the sites I waste my non-rapey time viewing, consist of photos just like these.”
Kinda like some commentators saying that if you surveyed every business email, you’d find racist jokes.
I fear that many people honestly believe the world is filled with people just like themselves… and it’s always shocking to both decent folks and d----e bags to find out that it just ain’t so.
@socalmom33 I was talking about the President of Penn State.
@Cardinal Fang “Everybody takes pictures of nude unconscious women (and, um, how did those unconscious women get nude?) and then posts the pictures on the internet? Really?”
That just suggests to me that they need to take a close look at a lot more fraternities. That young man’s parents must be so proud. (sarcasm)
@Much2learn … I wish I could believe that parents involved would feel ashamed, and some probably do.
But this sense of self-righteous entitlement comes from somewhere, and like the Oompa Loompas say:
Consolation wrote:
I think a fraternity member who looked at that page and took no action should be expelled. These fraternity members understood it was wrong. They just didn’t think they would be caught or that they would be punished if they were caught. I am very eager to change this sort of fraternity culture. Expulsions would go a long way.
That doesn’t mean these young men can’t be rehabilitated… somewhere else. That would be a desirable outcome, in my opinion. But I would like to see them expelled for participating in and condoning this behavior by not speaking up and objecting. It’s a brotherhood and they are responsible for each other.
ETA: and once again I’ll post there are four generations of fraternity men in my family. I have some familiarity with this world.
Having read the interview cited above, I rest my case regarding young people being inundated with these images and excessive sharing of them and not knowing where the line is.
That said, the picture he presents of a broadly focused group with occasional posting of these images is quite different from the virtually pornographic group implied earlier. I’d like to know which it was.
The internet is flooded with porn. The annual SI swimsuit issue is, IMHO, softcore porn. Playboy has been around trying to legitimize porn for decades and decades. We have photos of Rihanna and JLo in their see-through dresses all over the place. Ads for Girls Gone Wild on the tv. Music videos that exploit women to the max. It goes on and on.
Firstly, you don’t even understand what a “page” is in this context, by your own admission. Secondly, I don’t think that you can assume that they understood that it was “wrong.” I think it is wrong. You think it is wrong. Many of them may not. By all means, close the chapter if it was actually as extreme as depicted. Expelling individual members–and I regard them as individuals, even though you do not–should be treated on a case by case basis.
I belong to Facebook groups where I haven’t looked at the photos and rarely check posts. Just being a member of the group doesn’t mean the person saw any of the photos.
But I don’t accept that college students are incapable of telling the difference between a woman who consented to be photographed and have her photo posted, and a woman who couldn’t consent because she was unconscious. The students who posted the photos (presuming the photos exist) don’t get a pass because of the ubiquity of porn, and the students who viewed the porn don’t get a pass if it was obvious that the women were photographed without their consent.
Anyone who mentions the fact that these girls would have been wise to “protect” themselves are just taking the focus away from the perpetrators and putting the focus on the victims- whether you meant to or not. Of course people in general should be on the look out. It’s a scary world out there. But that’s a given. What’s not a given to many people is how disgusting and immoral and horrible this behavior is. If you don’t believe me that many people don’t think it’s a big deal, just read that boy’s statement about the fraternity. Playing it off as “no big deal.” Or go look at Penn State’s Yik Yak. While there are many students on there defending the victims, there are also many who are defending the frat boys.
My point is that the second you take the focus off the fraternity boys and mention the girls and how they should have protected themselves, you’re feeding into the idea of rape culture whether you meant to or not. I don’t want to talk about how girls need to watch their drinks and how girls shouldn’t get blackout drunk. Because the girls aren’t the issue here. The boys are. It’s a very good idea to teach girls those things and I believe in those tasks more than anything, but I want to talk about what scums of the earth those boys are and what we can do to make sure they get the maximum punishment possible.
I could not never understand why the young boys n girls doing this. there should be awareness to them by their parents and teachers that what to post online and what don’t. Every time you check different profiles of any teen age student you will found lots of objectionable posts there
Hayden, your story doesn’t ring true. Women are awake for both vaginal and CS births. Only very rarely would a woman need general anesthesia and that would be for an emergency CS where there would be other medical personnel on hand. I find it hard to believe a doctor would be alone in a recovery room with a patient long enough to goof off and take these pictures without a nurse or other personnel around. Unless there’s a link to a story, I for one don’t buy it.