"My point is that the second you take the focus off the fraternity boys and mention the girls and how they should have protected themselves, you’re feeding into the idea of rape culture whether you meant to or not. "
Teaching girls how to protect themselves is not “feeding into rape culture” any more than telling my son to not walk around late at night by himself is “feeding into mugging culture.” And it’s not victim blaming either.
I totally agree. I told all my sons that when they were ready for sex it should be a mutual decision on both parts and not one encouraging the other. That if they need to get a girl drunk that it’s rape. That they should be prepared for both the physical and emotional consequences. That it should not be a “it just happened” situation but a well thought out decision on the part of both parties.
Having said that though, I told my younger sisters that they should not put themselves in a situation where bad things happen. That if they need to drink to do something they arent ready for, then they aren’t ready. That even though the boy will be totally at fault if he takes advantage, that she will still suffer the consequences of the rape. That is NOT condoning the rape culture. That is being realistic.
http://www.centredaily.com/2015/03/19/4658915_penn-state-president-eric-barron.html?rh=1
Penn State’s president, on Wednesday, stated clearly that the students will be held accountable in every way available and legal for the University and police to pursue.
I don’t think teaching your kids about the dangers of partying while intoxicated or out of control are a gender issue.
I think the difference here is perspective. Every parent here (hopefully) tries teaches or has taught their children the differences between right and wrong, between safe and unsafe. No one would say that parents should do otherwise.
We all want our children to live safe. We all want our children to live right.
The solitary lesson from this news story is, IMHO, the wrong committed by the young men against the young women.
If you take away the wrongness from this story, the young women’s safety naturally follows as a consequence.
Conversely, if you take away the unsafe actions of the young women, there is every reason for me to believe that the young men would act out against others. The interview of one of the frat members cited above makes it clear that many of these men still don’t even believe that wrong was done. They would just find other targets for their “satire.”
“Teaching girls how to protect themselves is not “feeding into rape culture” any more than telling my son to not walk around late at night by himself is “feeding into mugging culture.” And it’s not victim blaming either”
Teaching girls how to protect themselves is responsible parenting. It is clearly extremely important. Girls are at risk of sexual assault on college campuses.
Shifting the focus of a conversation from the misbehavior and abuse of boys towards girls, to how girls should have protected themselves from that abuse is an example of rape culture. We immediately think about teaching girls to protect themselves instead of teaching boys not to post nude photos of unconscious women and then view them surreptitiously. It sets up a situation where we talk about how girls could have prevented the incident from happening, because, if they hadn’t been drunk and passed out, no one would have been able to take their photo and post it. We shift some of the responsibility.
In my mind, it is similar to saying, “she was dressed provocatively, so she was asking for it.” Women aren’t responsible for their own rapes. Woman aren’t responsible if their nude photos are posted without their consent. The boys/men are responsible for their own actions. Living in a society where women freely post nude selfies on the internet and porn becomes a cultural norm doesn’t excuse either having sex with a woman without her consent or posting nude photos of a woman without consent.
Rape culture makes rape culture behaviors more understandable, but doesn’t excuse those behaviors. There seems to me to be a continuing overemphasis here on how holding young men responsible for their own actions somehow disadvantages them and less concern over how their female victims have been disadvantaged. ymmv.
ETA: We still live in a patriarchy. It is difficult to disengage from the idea men are just privileged over women by virtue of their maleness. imho. ymmv.
I don’t accept it either and I certainly don’t advocate giving them a pass. I believe I made it clear that I think that suspension, probation, education, targeted service, and expulsion should all be on the table for those students. And that the chapter should be closed or suspended by their national as well as the university.
After reading the thread since I left it yesterday, I have to admit I am angry at some of the responses, that talk about how society is full of sexual images, how the SI swimsuit issue is soft porn and so forth and that somehow that makes what these kids did any less horrible. Kids are innundated with sexual images, and a lot of parents to be honest don’t seem to be well equipped to try and allow kids to grow up normally in this world, I won’t argue.
That said, though, blaming the sexualization of society on what these morons did is an excuse, it is no better than what the idiot brother wrote defending what happened, it is no different than if someone said that the girls deserved it for getting drunk. It is the same mentality they have in ‘traditional societies’, where they blame a woman for getting raped (so called honor killings in garden spots like Pakistan), or where they force women to basically hide themselves (uber orthodox muslim countries, with the Burqha and the like), it is instead of blaming the actions of men who can’t control themselves, blaming everything else. It is no different than the US not all that many years ago, where rape defenses were allowed that the woman was asking for it.
The problem isn’t that a young woman got drunk, the problem isn’t she went to a party and took a drink from someone that was spiked, the problem isn’t that these ‘poor boys’ grew up in a world of sexual images, the problem was that the brothers in this house, especially the poor excuse for a human being who wrote that defense, are emotionally and intellectually immature, but unlike a child they don’t have the empathy kids have before life takes it away from them. Arguing “everyone is doing this” or 'in the past, everyone did this" is the sign of a cretin who shouldn’t even be in college, his defense tells a lot about the attitude of people in that fraternity. How come the president of the fraternity hasn’t come out and said that they will find out who did this, and throw them out of the fraternity? How come the boys who weren’t involved aren’t helping point out those who did? I don’t see outrage from the boys in that house, if this is truly “a few bad apples spoil the barrel”, then they darn well better be culling out those who did this.The problem isn’t the few bad apples alone, it is the culture of the bad actors, if this is truly the actions of a few bad apples, then why don’t frats self police, why does it take something like this, or the racist video, or some girl getting raped that suddenly brings out there are ‘bad apples’ there? Do you think that this photo site was the work of a few people who acted as some sort of secret cabal, or do you think they were proud of what they did and told the other brothers about it? And I’ll answer my own question, the kind of jerks who do things like this don’t keep it silent, they brag about it, the way they brag about what women they ‘bagged’ that week (and before someone says I am painting all people in fraternities the same way, I am not, I am talking about the kind of mutant who could do something like this, though I do criticize the ‘good frat brothers’ for not saying anything or taking action against the poltroons.).
I am tired of hearing that these are boys that made a mistake, I am tired of hearing “everyone did it”, it doesn’t wash, and if fraternities are upset at how they are all being branded as animals, instead of coming out with all the stuff about the good they do (forgetting an old saying that is true, it takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, it takes 5 seconds to destroy it), maybe they need to look inside themselves and instead of whining about how they are made to look, do something about it, that is what adults should be doing. You can argue that an 18 year old member of a frat, who is away from home, living in a frat house, is likely to do stupid things, but what is the excuse for the upper classmen in the house? Why doesn’t the president , who I assume would likely be a senior, do something? Why instead of putting a damper on stupid things, they either look the other way or god forbid, encourage the stupidity? Maybe the national organization should do something, insist that the frat houses have the equivalent of RA’s in a dorm (who are there, after all, to help keep order)…instead of putting out the PR crap about how these build bonds of friendship and create networks of future leaders and such, how about maybe, just maybe, actually doing that? Sorry, but the kind of people who would do crap like this, or get a girl drunk to have sex with her, are not tomorrow’s leaders, they are tomorrow’s nightmares.
It isn’t like I am saying I was an angel in college, or that kids won’t do stupid things, they will, I did, but there is a difference between doing something silly, and what these idiots did, the fact that they didn’t even realize that taking pictures of a passed out girl and putting it on a website was anything but good fun says a lot, it says that whatever they learned (or didn’t learn) growing up, being in a frat house, rather than acting as a brake on their behavior, facilitates it, and that is pathetic. Fraternities can be places where kids grow up, but that means that those running the show and the responsible brothers help keep the morons in line, but doesn’t sound like that happens, definitely didn’t happen here. This kind of incident should have been taken care of internally, the fact that these incidents only become an issue when they become public is an indictment of these frats and their culture. I also will add that the frats that themselves are pretty responsible, when things like this happen, should be coming down like a ton of bricks on the offending frats, but they generally don’t (do some googling, there have been articles about the greek councils and disciplinary groups for greeks, that basically indicate they are for the most part unwilling to really sanction ill behaving chapters).
Since when is giving crime prevention tips automatically “blaming the victim”?
“People in general should be on the look out”, but many people are naive in how criminals operate, particularly types of criminals that they may not have known of before. New freshwomen on college campuses may not be aware of how sexual predators operate (preying on unsuspecting freshwomen who get drunk at large parties), so they may not know how to avoid being at high risk of such crimes if no one tells them. Indeed, greater awareness of specific crime prevention techniques may allow some who may have otherwise become victims to notice who the suspects are (e.g. if they notice a suspect trying to drug someone else’s drink), possibly making it easier to arrest them.
I’m wondering why there was no statement from the fraternity if those were “rogue” elements; is the national chapter investigating?
I’m thinking they have legal advice but the absence of a statement is puzzling.
As for the idiot brother who said “everyone does it so it’s fine”, he reminds me of the brother who justified the vandalizing of ski resorts.
(sorry, wrong thread) 
The national chapter has suspended their charter I believe…but again, why is it that incidents like this only come to light when it hits the paper? I would love to get the president of the frat under oath and ask him if he knew of the website and if so, why he didn’t do anything to punish those involved (and if he was on the list of the group who could access it, then he should be one of the first people expelled, if a person in position of authority at the house knew of this, and did nothing, he doesn’t have a leg to stand on).
Seems like it would be easy to see the members of the private group and whether the president was a part of it.
@ ucbalumnus-
I don’t think anyone is arguing that giving young women advice on dealing with situations where they may be in danger is a bad idea. I think what people are reacting to is on a thread about bad behavior at a fraternity involving young women being treated badly, and then seeing someone post a message about young women being trained in how to be safe, comes off as “if the girls protected themselves, then this wouldn’t happen”…not saying that was the intent of the original poster, but the reality is in far too many cases you hear things like that, and it can be construed as blaming the victim. In another frat case, where a girl was drugged and raped, commenters on the news story wrote things like “well, the girl is to blame too, because she went to the party, knowing the what fraternities are, she drank”, or with the Steubenville rape case, there were people on here who argued that the girl in question wasn’t a gem, so therefore those who did this shouldn’t be blamed entirely, not to mention that in rape cases despite the laws making such things illegal, defense lawyers still try to imply that the victim in some way had led to it happening…
Again, not saying you or anyone else means that, and I agree entirely that preventing rape or sexual violations like this cannot be based entirely on punitive law, that prevention in many ways is a lot more effective. For example, in society as a whole we now teach young kids about how to deal with strangers, because people have become sensitized (perhaps a bit too much IMO) about the threat of child sexual predators, and it has helped. Having young women sensitized to the threats that parties where alcohol is involved especially, teaching tactics like being in a group and so forth is great, as would be having the lunkheads who seem to dominate at fraternities have training their parents should have given them that hurting women (or anyone) is wrong, as is standing aside while someone else, brother or no brother, does something wrong, an ounce of prevention is often worth a ton of cure, but that in now way, shape or form absolves the guilty parties in any way, the law still has to come down on them like a ton of bricks, whether a victim acts stupidly or not, the perps deserve to get hammered, pure and simple.
When I hear things like “they are young, they made a mistake”, it bothers me a lot, because it basically is saying that a young person,no matter what they do, shouldn’t face the consequences for their actions. There are always mitigating circumstances, but the problem with that statement is while I am all for mercy and understanding, that that often comes down to is “X is young, X did something stupid, but they shouldn’t pay the price of that for the rest of their life”, and what that means is whatever X did, go easy on them…in terms of down the road, will do something stupid hurt them? Yes, it will, and these days, with the internet, even more so, something a lot of young people don’t understand. But that has always been true, once you are the legal age, criminal records are public domain, if you apply for a job and you raped someone back in the dark ages, it would come out on a background check (lot faster than today).
I think a lot of people who say that think back to the fact that 30 years ago, if a frat did something like this, it either wouldn’t even make the papers or if it did, because there was no net, it would be very hard to find it, so if a young person make a ‘mistake’ like this, it wouldn’t come back to haunt them…and my answer to that argument is that in some cases, when it is something serious like this, or rape, it never should have been swept under the rug, that the problem was in the old days "young people’ could make “mistakes” that weren’t mistakes, but got away with them, and today because of the net and the information is out there, we no longer allow them to hide. Among other things, in the past, because there were no consequences, that ‘young person who made a mistake’ got away with it, and often down the road continued to do it (and think about this one, maybe the young men in the frat had fathers who similarly made "mistakes’ like this, might even have bragged of doing it to the son when he was going away to the same frat), and maybe, just maybe, if they get it through their thick heads that this kind of stuff isn’t tolerated, if they see the consequences, rather than having it swept under the rug, they and more importantly those coming after them, will learn the lessons so this won’t happen because they will realize they will be held accountable. If they want to get out of the shadow from what they did, they will need to re-earn the trust, the same way that an 18 year old who robs a bank, kills someone, beats someone up, steals a car or the like faces the consequences, obviously in line with what they did. An 18 year old who gets caught shoplifting as part of a frat prank is going to be treated differently then an 18 year old accused of date rape, so the punishment going down the road will fit the crime. I don’t think rape or posting nude images of women who are drunk is a ‘youthful mistake’, whereas shoplifting something as part of a prank could be considered so, based on the magnitude of the incident.
I was just wondering, as a current undergraduate student, if any of you parents out there have had conversations with your kids, especially your sons, about consent specifically?? I know my parents didn’t. I would just strongly encourage you to do that before they start college, or even if they are currently enrolled. Navigating consent is seen as “tricky” but I think it’s more important for everyone to realize consent doesn’t mean that ONLY “no means no”, it should be about enthusiastic consent- or “only yes means yes”
There’s also an awesome campaign from this group called Breakthrough, which is called Be That Guy… all about being the type of guy who calls out predatory behavior. It might be helpful.
When it’s given in direct response to the reporting of that crime.
“That young adult was robbed? Well, what were they doing in that part of town- don’t they know it’s not safe there?”
“A drunk driver killed someone’s teen child who was a passenger? What was s/he doing riding with that person?”
“That woman was raped? Why didn’t she have a drinking buddy there to protect her?”
It’s akin to blaming victims of other events.
“Earthquake took out their houses? That’s what they get for building it in California.”
“Their house burnt down? Don’t leave candles unattended!”
“Your husband got cancer? Remember- don’t smoke!”
nycbt91 – yes, I specifically had those conversations with my sons, starting when they were about 3. “No means no” you can’t have/do/go/whatever when someone else says no. I had those conversations when they were 10 – “No means no” you can’t bother people/annoy your friends/disrespect a bad teacher just because you want to or are annoyed yourself, that’s no excuse.Listen to other people. I had those conversations at 15 – " no means no" no you can’t go with the gf/friends/ to whatever/wherever because it isn’t safe, and you aren’t ready to deal with the problems that might come up. You can’t hang out with jerks because you can’t be that guy. Also, “No means no” and you have absolute rights over who touches you, how, when, why, and you don’t need an explanation. Grandma will get over it if she can’t kiss you because you don’t like it.
And I had those conversations at 18 when they left for school, but by then, it was more like “No means no” so when you hear some girl in trouble, you step in. You call the police. You don’t just stand there. What if it was (name of female friend or cousin or sister)… My sons have had multiple interactions with girls, guys, people who needed an ally. They are great, great guys.
@nycbt91 As a parent of a 17 year old, yes I’ve had that conversation.
But that conversation can’t begin at sexual awareness- it begins when they are toddlers. “You can’t always get what you want.” “What you do affects other people- think about how they feel.” “Don’t be stupid just because everyone else is being stupid.”
If your parents didn’t talk about “consent” directly, nonetheless, I’d be surprised and disappointed if they didn’t raise you to at least think of how your actions affect other people. At best, that’s what’s missing from the frat boys- even the basic understanding that what they did inflicted harm on others… (at worst, they relished with glee at inflicting harm).
And I don’t believe consent is “tricky”- I think basic empathy for another human being will guide correct behavior 99% of the time. In those instances when wires get crossed and misunderstanding occurs, empathy will guide towards the corrective behavior.
Most freshmen are not sexual predators, but most are also naive the same way that freshwomen are.
I.e. they may know not to commit rape themselves, but would not be able to recognize sexual predation and stop it and/or be an effective witness to help arrest and convict an actual sexual predator. Most of the same warning signs that one may tell freshwomen to help them avoid being easy victims are the same warning signs that one may tell both freshmen and freshwomen to change them from being naive ineffective bystanders into potentially effective crime stoppers, or at least potentially effective witnesses.
For example, if everyone made it a habit to watch for people adulterating drinks, pour out unattended drinks, prevent anyone from taking a very drunk or passed out person into a private room, etc. then it can be harder for sexual predators to commit their crimes and easier for them to be arrested and convicted if they try.
@greenbutton Congratulations on raising some great sons. I know it’s a lot of work, and sometimes a fair amount of luck as well. But definitely sounds like you done good.