Oh, and DH had a conversation with our sons when they had gf’s – about how they were in part responsible for this girl’s reputation and honor, and needed to take that seriously and do nothing or say anything that would damage it. They were to walk any female friends home through campus, assure their safety when necessary, and always listen to them. “women” he famously said “hate guys that can’t listen. So listen”
@ ucbalumnus-
Freshman boys may be naive, I wouldn’t doubt that, though to be honest there has been so much out there about date rape, if they happen to come from a state whose sex education isn’t “just say no and pray to the bible” they will have had a lot on that, so it is hard to believe they wouldn’t know about date rape, or quite honestly, that posting nude pictures of women is somehow acceptable, there again has been so much out there about that, these kids live in the world of the net and they know of the revenge porn and so forth and how much has been put out there about issues like that.
More importantly, frats are not exactly only full of freshman, even assuming freshman wouldn’t know enough to stop this, where were the upperclassmen? Are we going to say “well, until people are 25, their judgement centers arent’ fully formed, so you can’t expect them to act right” as i have heard said.
The sad part about all this is as someone else pointed out, a lot of this goes back way further than puberty, the sexual aspects mask something else, that those who commit these kind of things seem to have an entitlement to themselves and zero empathy. It is funny when frats brag about their charitable giving, but are they doing so because they have empathy for whoever is the beneficiary of the charity, or is it because they see it as a get out of jail free card? Kids are supposed to be taught to respect others, that they don’t have the right to do what they wish, that others have the right to be treated with respect as they do, and it seems like these kids either never had it, or it was so weakly instilled that faced with a kind of crowd based insanity, forget about it. And before someone rants and rails about this being modern liberal parenting and so forth, forget it, this kind of stuff went on in the ‘good ole days’, especially when frats were often the bastions of wealth and privilege, there have been plenty of accounts written at the best schools full of ‘gentleman’ going back to the 19th century, of women being used and abused at the frats, the only difference is back then it was covered up as ‘boys will be boys’, this is nothing new (the one thing the frat boy who defended the PU frat had right)
This is a gross, outright distortion of what I have said. I refuse to read another word you have written, so I will not make it through the rest of your lengthy diatribe to see what other character assassinations you have included.
Talk about anger? I AM FURIOUS at being slandered in this way.
It’s everyone! Ugh… So sad.
"Having read the interview cited above, I rest my case regarding young people being inundated with these images and excessive sharing of them and not knowing where the line is.
That said, the picture he presents of a broadly focused group with occasional posting of these images is quite different from the virtually pornographic group implied earlier. I’d like to know which it was.
The internet is flooded with porn. The annual SI swimsuit issue is, IMHO, softcore porn. Playboy has been around trying to legitimize porn for decades and decades. We have photos of Rihanna and JLo in their see-through dresses all over the place. Ads for Girls Gone Wild on the tv. Music videos that exploit women to the max. It goes on and on.
someone else’s quote you were responding to
““I think a fraternity member who looked at that page and took no action should be expelled. These fraternity members understood it was wrong. They just didn’t think they would be caught or that they would be punished if they were caught. I am very eager to change this sort of fraternity culture. Expulsions would go a long way.””
Firstly, you don’t even understand what a “page” is in this context, by your own admission. Secondly, I don’t think that you can assume that they understood that it was “wrong.” I think it is wrong. You think it is wrong. Many of them may not. By all means, close the chapter if it was actually as extreme as depicted. Expelling individual members–and I regard them as individuals, even though you do not–should be treated on a case by case basis."
Maybe I have forgotten how to read English, but what you are arguing is that those who did this, and those who knew about it and did nothing, don’t know it is wrong because there is so much porn out there it has addled their judgement as to what is right and wrong, and I don’t buy that. The fact that you brought up the flood of porn out there can have no other reason then to make the argument that if a kid knew, and did nothing, or viewed the images and did nothing, it was because they didn’t know the difference between right and wrong because of the porn that is out there…
Your own words ".Secondly, I don’t think that you can assume that they understood that it was “wrong.”
Why did you say this, right after bringing up the flood of sexual images? In our society, if someone doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong (for example with a kid, or someone who is mentally ill), it is a legal defense…and while this is not a legal case as we are discussing it, arguing that kids are confused because of the flood of images out there is saying that for example, someone who viewed the images in the group should not be expelled, because they didn’t know the difference…
And there is something you are leaving out here, and it is big…and that deals with consent. If as is claimed those pictures were of young women passed out, it doesn’t take a grad student in law to figure out it is wrong to take nude pictures of them. Porn is legal as long as the subject is above 18 and has consented, Rihanna with a see through top or the SI Swimsuit issue is displaying images the women themselves agreed to, they consented to those pictures, whereas a girl passed out couldn’t have consented. I don’t argue people have been desensitized to nudity, and to sex, and it isn’t always healthy, but that doesn’t change consent or the concept of it, and a kid in college should be able to understand that. People are upset, not because these are nude images (if the girls had consented to taking the pictures and having them posted, it would be a different matter and you would be right), they are upset because those jerks took the pictures when the girls couldn’t say yes or no, then posted them, and that is about consent, not about nudity and sex. Arguing that there is a flood of sexy images out there was like Ted Bundy claiming that porn drove him to kill women, it is an excuse, and a poor one, for the actions involved. When sex or sexual images are done in a non consensual manner, the problem is not that the poor kids who didn’t this didn’t know, it was they violated something that has nothing to do directly with sex, and that is consent, and that is something little kids are taught when they are young.
@Consolation “Having read the interview cited above, I rest my case regarding young people being inundated with these images and excessive sharing of them and not knowing where the line is.”
I can not believe that these young people are so morally bankrupt that they really have no idea where the line is. If they do not, that is on them and their parents. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. If one of those girls is 17, you are still looking at 30 years for child porn in federal court. That should be plenty of time to figure out where the line is.
@Consolation “I think it is wrong. You think it is wrong. Many of them may not.”
That is possible, but in the end, it really does not matter. The law is the law, regardless of each person’s opinion.
@Consolation “Expelling individual members–and I regard them as individuals, even though you do not–should be treated on a case by case basis.”
Agreed, but I think the focus should be on the crimes here. If they are in prison, the expulsion issue will resolve itself.
Oh course they knew it was wrong. It was secret. The first secret page was deleted when a woman accidentally saw her photo there. A second secret page was later created. They understood women would probably object to having their nude photos posted without their consent. They did it anyway. They didn’t ask for consent.
(according to news reports linked here)
How is it possible to argue they thought this was okay and not wrong?
ETA:
I had to go back through to find this quote from Lucie’s link in post #29.
I too read your post (excerpted below) as excusing young men who take pictures of nude unconscious young women and post them on Facebook, because the young men don’t “know where the line is” because “the Internet is flooded with porn.” I was surprised to read that from you, because it’s not what I’ve come to expect from your posts, but I didn’t see a different way to interpret what you wrote. If you meant to say something else, your meaning was not as clear as it could have been, because it was misinterpreted by a number of posters.
^agree. It surprised me as well and I have mistakenly misinterpreted Consolation’s posts before.
Reading this back it seems to me that many of you have misinterpreted my initial post on this thread.
Teaching girls to be safe at parties and to watch out for themselves is by no means contributing to rape culture and never did I say that. However, what is contributing to rape culture is taking a thread that was initially created to shed light on the disgusting acts of these men and then deciding to refocus the light on the girls and how “we need to teach girls to protect themselves” is just taking the spotlight off of the perpetrator and shining it directly on the victims. If you want to talk about safety procedures at parties- and might I add that’s a wonderful thing to discuss- make a new thread. Because this one needs to be completely focused on making sure these men pay the highest price for what they did.
If you’re still not seeing this from my perspective, look at it like this. When someone gets robbed/murdered at night, your initial reaction is never “Oh, they shouldn’t have been there. They should have been smarter about that.” Your initial reaction is “I hope they catch the guy who did it and they pay severely for their crime and I wish the best to the family of the victim.” It’s just that in our society where a very real rape culture is present, we often to not get raped rather than not to rape.
Also, by having your first reaction be that “Girls should always protect themselves and not drink and not walk alone and not wear revealing clothes,” you’re basically saying that it’s better that another girl gets raped. There will always be another girl who’s less sober, wearing less clothing, and in a darker area than I’m in and I want her to be just as safe as me.
I’m disgusted by this whole situation. I recently put down my deposit at Penn State but if serious action isn’t taken I do not want to go to a school where this is considered okay. It’s sexual abuse and everyone involved should be expelled.
Schoen. The president of the college promises action. He finds this behavior reprehensible as does almost everyone.
He also promises to follow the letter of the law and not let the media rush and push for action so that innocent people are not caught up in the sweep for immediate justice.
This should be the exact kind of school you want to attend.
Do not let that stop you!!! PSU is a great school . My daughter had a lot of great options but she chose this school . The courses are challenging and there are so many ways to get involved and find friends who are of like minds. There are jerks everywhere , you just need to stay away from them.
And hundreds of students are attending a rally tomorrow at noon to demand a stronger response regarding the frat specifically, and bad behavior in general. If the snow isnt too bad, there may be a thousand…
I’m disgusted too. But I’m sorry to say that I don’t believe this situation is unique to Penn State, and the administration at Penn State appears to be treating this case seriously. So I don’t see the point of not going to Penn State, if you otherwise think it’s the place for you.
Really ^^^^ you join as a member 10 minutes ago and your first post is to support frats and put down a school with thousands of hard working kids .
Let me see if I can make this very clear.
I think that from what we have read and heard about this and other cases it seems quite evident that a popular culture flooded with sexualization of children and exploitation, especially of girls and women, as well as violent images, has resulted in a horrifying number of young people do not seem to know where to draw the line. They cross it over and over, but are surprised when called to account.
THIS DOES NOT EQUATE TO EXCUSING THEIR ACTIONS. I have never said anything of the sort. I have said over and over again that they should be punished in accordance with their individual degrees of guilt. I’ve said over and over that I think the chapter should be closed, just like the OU chapter. From my first post in this thread:
I think that education needs to be a part of this because it is fairly obvious that these young men do not understand what is wrong and why. They apparently fail to understand that taking a picture of a person throwing up or doing drugs differs CRITICALLY from taking a nude picture of a young woman who is passed out or asleep, let alone posting the picture. They are apparently unable to separate a possible prank fro a severe violation of privacy that almost amounts to an assault.
Something is broken. For all our sakes, it needs to be fixed.
If you persist in saying that I want to excuse the people who did this, there is nothing more I can say to you.
Agreed and well stated
Thanks for the clarification, Consolation.
I wonder how much of this alleged inability to tell where to draw the line is in actuality motivated reasoning. Would that horrifying jerk who defended the fraternity feel the same way if some other fraternity member at another fraternity took a nude picture of his unconscious sister or girlfriend and passed it around to friends? Does this fraternity defender really not know this is wrong, or is he just rationalizing?
I agree with ucbalumnus’ comment that greater awareness will make it harder for criminals to commit these crimes. I disagree with heckarad that comments like his have no place in this thread. This is exactly the thread that young men and women might stumble upon and learn something from. Even if the topic DID remain focused solely on what punishment Penn State can dole out and to whom, this thread will have zero effect on what transpires there. However, an open discussion might serve to educate some of our young people. Using this story as a teachable moment can be done without blaming those young women. The two topics are intertwined and it’s reasonable that one (the despicable behavior of those young men) lead to another (here are some ways you can better protect yourself from despicable people such as those). They’re lessons that need to be taught to our sons as well as our daughters.