I don’t think punishing Greek life for infractions they’ve actually committed would diminish applicants’ academic quality. In addition, while we know that fewer than half the students came because of Greek Life, what about the students who DIDN’T come because of Greek Life or never even applied because of it?
Regarding the admissions drop if Greek life is done away with - there is no way to know who currently doesn’t apply or attend because they don’t like the atmosphere of campus. There may be plenty of students ready to fill the void.
edited to add: Gosh, you think I should read all the posts before I reply? I seem to have echoed MYOS1634.
The size of a school should not be conflated with its quality, first of all. And Oberlin is perfectly well known. It is a common big school mentality to assume everyone knows your school – yet Penn and PSU are consistently confused, because many people don’t know the difference between them, just as many people couldn’t tell Oberlin from Kenyon. When we travel, plenty of people hadn’t even heard of Penn State at all — until Sandusky, and the recurring frat problems.
And if the Greek system proponents really believe that 44% of the 17% of students who pledge wouldn’t even apply if they had to forego a frat is a big enough number to cause a blip in applications, they are more full of themselves than I thought. I’d be happy to see 90% of the frats and their money go away. There are other fish in the sea.
Change of importance only happens when we are fearless enough to challenge the status quo and “everybody knows” mentality, take ownership of our responsibility for problems (the one bad apple theory? sooooooo over that) and frats stop using THON as a rationale for excusing their lack of respect for rules.
@cobrat "
It also doesn’t exactly reflect well on those “quality” applicants if those are their main/sole priorities when evaluating colleges…"
I can only speak to my personal experience as a parent of my 3 children in their collegiate search process. As we discussed it, I would describe a highly regarded program in their intended major as the “entree”. That was the primary consideration given to selecting a school. Then, as the “side dishes” they would consider other criteria that were important to them including: location, urban/rural setting, sports culture, Greek life, campus facilities, climate etc. Having a strong Greek life was not the “main/sole” driving factor, but with so many great schools to choose from, it would definitely be a way to rule one out vs. another.
None of my children would have picked a school that did not offer a Greek community. They have grown up with dozens of “aunts” and “uncles” who are members of mine and my husband’s Greek organizations. They have seen the community service and involvement that we still, as adults, participate in as part of our organizations. They want those same experiences for themselves. This is no different than someone saying they want to go to school in the South because they like the climate. It is just an added criteria that people have the ability to use in their search process. And, if PSU eliminates this aspect of campus culture, it will absolutely change their applicant pool.
For those who have posed the question that maybe other applicants who don’t want Greek life will fill those spots, that is certainly possible. However, if you don’t want to go Greek, you can apply to a school and ignore it, as the majority of PSU students have opted to do. But, if you WANT this and it is not available, you would have to select another institution. You can’t go to Brigham Young and have that experience. So, applicants that do want this as an option, won’t apply to Brigham Young.
As for academic success, I will use my daughter as an example. She was a National Merit Finalist and now has a demanding dual major with 2 minors and a 3.93 GPA. She has had incredibly impressive internships (this year as a rising junior with 6 offers to consider). She is an officer of numerous campus organizations. Generalizing Greeks as being in easy majors with mediocre GPAs who only get jobs because of connections tells me that you need to meet more members of Greek organizations. I think you would be very surprised. Don’t limit your sample to a cousin. I have been actively involved in the Greek community for over 35 years and have met unbelievably talented, successful Greek collegians and alums. We are not all the characterization portrayed in movies.
As 10s4life said above, the Greek community does a great deal of good. And I am not talking about raising money for THON. I am talking about leadership development, building a spirit for community and philanthropy and creating deep lasting friendships among members. As an adult, I have been President of many organizations and can tell who is Greek because they understand Roberts Rules of Order, and are not daunted with organizing and planning events, etc.
We teach our members to take charge and push themselves to develop their capabilities.Certainly, others can learn similar skills by joining other organizations but many seemingly don’t.
I agree wholeheartedly that there are terrible things that happen within the Greek system. Frankly, far more so among men’s organizations than women’s; which is why I am frustrated that sororities are lumped in with the bad behavior that we have seen at Beta. But, these bad things happen in the military and within sports culture. How many stories have we heard of football players assaulting women? Hazing takes place on sports teams and even the marching band. But, I don’t hear people calling to disband those programs.
Real change will only come about with the administration at PSU and all colleges working with parents, alumni, national headquarters, chapter advisers, etc. The answer is not “shut them all down”. It is so much more complex.
I do love your rational defense, and appreciate you’ve come from a background that wants the Greek life as part of college. Some of my own family is similarly inclined. But.
The admins at PSU, alumni, natl hq, chapter advisors , more rules – been there, tried that. No matter what is attempted. reprehensible and oftenillegal activites are still occuring, and virtually every time Greeks point the finger at the school, or the town, or society. There’s a nearly total lack of accountability. IFC and PanHel close ranks, and rationalize the most abhorrent behavior because it is the “brotherhood” and “sisterhood” they feel primary loyalty to, not the school, community or other students. if that doesn’t change, more events will be in the news. To those who say not all Greeks are out of control, well, okay. But if you sit around with garbage, pretty soon you smell, too. a cleanup is past due.
PSU, of all schools, has no more funds in the bank of reputation. The Greek system has overdrawn, and overdrawn, and overdrawn their account. It isn’t comlex at this point, although it is unfortunate. Close them.
"Well Williams, Middlebury and Amherst are all still standing and they banned Greek life. Focus on the students now who will be future donors – if they never experience Greek life they will not be complaining and withholding donations. "
Catholic colleges mostly don’t have greeks. ND, BC and Gtown doing fine.
But if a school has the sunk cost investment of greeks (brick mortar housing, alumni, culture, tradition) it is pretty hard to eliminate. And greek membership in many places has been increasing in recent years.
While most university presidents wish they didn’t have greeks to deal with, they also realize they can’t make them go away. So they are stuck trying to manage and risk minimize.
@HarvestMoon1 The total ban was only in 2014 so some of the underground frat members haven’t graduated yet - a few students may still be associated with them even though they are gone now, or there may be larger remnants, I am not sure. And yes, it is an honor code violation to be in one.
@cobrat -
I got a BS in Applied Mathematics with and emphasis in Computer Science and many of my fraternity brothers were Electrical and Mechanical Engineering majors. The majority of the house were Business majors at a top business school in CA so AI guess that makes sense.
I am not sure what “easier majors” your are talking about but would love to hear it.
You don’t need to be involved in Greek life, to do community service and philanthropy. Some of the schools with the most community service hours, ie; the Jesuit schools, Bates, have no Greek life.
I don’t think Greek life should be painted with such a broad brush, but the positives that @MomfromPA15317 describe, can definitely be achieved outside of Greek life.
@cobrat @jpc763 I’d like to echo that. While many consider Econ or business easy and it’s true that many in fraternities (including mine) are mostly those majors, they work hard in school and get good jobs. Some of the graduating 4th years all landed positions in the Big 4 and many got admitted to grad school. I myself am an electrical engineering major. I just hate how so many outside the Greek system paint members as shallow people who party, and drink their brain cells away.
“the Jesuit schools”
This myth keeps coming up. Neither Jesuit schools nor Catholic schools in general forbid Greek life. Yes, BC, Notre Dame, and Georgetown don’t recognize Greek life (though there are underground chapters at GT and a big underground system at Santa Clara). But those are individual campus policies, not characteristics of Catholic or Jesuit schools. Villanova, St. Louis U, Marquette, Creighton, all the Loyolas, DePaul, Seton Hall, Duquesne, U of San Diego, St. Joe’s, and dozens of other Catholic schools from many different orders have Greek life.
From my experience, the sorority members were identifiable be large letters affixed to the license plate area on their sweatpants. The only times fraternity brothers were distinctively recognizable was when drunk and obnoxious (yelling obscenities at passers by, for example), or when smelling vaguely of stale beer and partially digested pizza on the house lawn the next morning.
I had a couple of friends who did not habitually sleep it off in a pool of their own flotsam, and were generally among the most upstanding citizens . The Clark Kent’s of the genre, living among us, incognito bereft of so much as one physics symbol on either cheek. The stereotype persists likely because of the easy (and maybe unfair) to correlate geographic coincidence of a Greek house and a recurring Sargasso of solo cups.
A golden PR opportunity to be sure.
The dismantlement of Fraternity Row at Mass Amherst (the state flagship) has been credited, at least in part, for the university shaking its “Zoo Mass” reputation. Of course there’s still drinking and of course kids still act like idiots at times, but nowhere to the extent it used to happen in the heyday of the UMass frats. Currently around 5.5% of students at Mass belong to a fraternity or sorority.
http://dailycollegian.com/2012/12/05/umass-fraternities-no-longer-characterized-with-‘zoomass’-party-image/
https://lostumass.omeka.net/items/show/66
@Hanna Loyola Maryland does not have Greek life, and is strong in community service and philanthropy. It also has the same binge drinking issues that seem to be present at universities with and without Greek life. I have yet to find a college campus that is not struggling with this issue to some degree. However, I would hope the failure to call for help for your friend when necessary does not become a national trend.
Newsweek/Penn State/Toxic Drinking Culture…
http://www.newsweek.com/penn-state-fraternity-drinking-college-608320
“This was completely preventable”
http://www.mcall.com/news/nationworld/pennsylvania/mc-penn-state-hazing-victim-speaks-out-0512-20170512-story.html
CNN interviews the parents – father claims there was an “adult” in the house that evening.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/15/us/penn-state-fraternity-piazza-family-interview/index.html
Very tough interview to watch.
@HarvestMoon1 - The fact that an adult in his 40’s or 50’s was in the “non hazing, dry” house that night and this happened is criminal. There is no way that he could have lived there and not known that they were supposed to be squeaky clean. I expect that he will be named in the civil suit.
I can not believe that nobody rode with him to the hospital. It is all so tragic and unbelievable. Zero compassion by supposedly intelligent adults.
All 18 arrested should have to watch this video of Piazza’s parents on an endless loop.
http://www.today.com/video/penn-state-fraternity-death-timothy-piazza-treated-like-rag-doll-in-hazing-father-says-943972419510
http://www.today.com/video/penn-state-hazing-death-timothy-piazza-s-father-says-frat-members-morally-culpable-943979075872
Unbelievable that no on from the frat or Penn State came to the wake or the funeral. That’s where the admin of Penn State have a big problem. They don’t take any accountability and they lack common decency. The culture cannot change with that type of thinking.
I have been criticized on her for saying this but I am going to say it again…The culture at PSU needs to change. I think it is even more difficult to change there because it is so much more since it almost sees itself as like a homogeneous country. PSU is a great place…but it can be definitely very cult like. The parents even used the “this was not Boys being Boys” analogy. PSU has an opportunity on the national stage to get make a statement and really try to improve and lead by example.
They blew it with the Sandusky case and bringing back Jay Paterno.
For the record, I find it offensive that not one rep from either the Frat or the University attended…this was all in the name of self preservation.