This is starting to sound a lot like the lord of the flies.
There are certain experiences we all go through and hear about that cannot be undone and change how we act or perceive something forever. This is definitely one of those things. Someone can try to justify the virtues of frats and PSU, and maybe there are positive attributes within the descriptions, but because of this (and Sandusky) I will never ever be able to hold PSU or frats with any regard. Maybe it’s small minded, but for me, this school is a joke, it’s done. The school is forever imprinted with this event and I couldn’t even be paid to send a kid there. University of Missouri is having an enrollment decline because of riots they had and are changing things up, maybe PSU needs to have an enrollment freefall to see they need to change. Unfortunately there a likely still a lot of clueless, selfish people like those guys in that frat, and families that think this is just boys being boys, that will likely congregate there.
I think you might well find that they aren’t that different from other students at Penn State. You would also find that most, if not all, of them had loving, involved parents, that people who knew them in high school would never dream that they’d be involved in something like this, and on and on. I think we’re always too quick to think that our kids (or ourselves) would never do something bad that somebody else has done. Until you’ve been placed in the situation where that bad behavior is normalized, you really don’t know what you’d do.
I think banning all Greek organizations at a big public university would be a drastic step. But maybe it should be tried, as an experiment, at Penn State.
For anyone who said no one was blaming the students just for happening to go there…
Well that post does beg the question why the rest of the non-greek student population are not up in arms. Why should one subset of the population be permitted to do such damage to the reputation of the school? This case is getting global coverage – I agree it is not fair to the rest of the students who play by the rules and are there for an education.
The CNN story is incredibly sad. As I said before, I don’t get the allure of Greek life, but ds2 has many friends who went Greek at their colleges. In fact, one is taking a job with his frat’s natl organization upon graduation. I hate that.
I agree with the dad that Penn State can suspend the students if they are found to be in violation of policy. That would send a chill through the other frats and srats and, I imagine, would straighten things up somewhat, though not totally.
I didn’t realize that the brother was at Penn State. Does anyone know whether he was in a frat?
Some of these posts have a lot more heat than light.
- As has been explained several times, "they" (meaning anyone in an official administrative role at Penn State) did not "bring back Jay Paterno." I imagine that "they" are about as upset as it's possible to be over Paterno's election to an alumni seat on the Board of Trustees. The university administration does not control the alumni election process, and does not vet the candidates. Anyone who gets nominated by 250 qualified alumni is on the ballot.
It is true that there is a substantial group of alumni who continue to revere Joe Paterno and to believe he was treated unjustly by the Penn State Board of Trustees when he was fired on account of the Sandusky situation, and they have been campaigning ever since to put like-minded alumni on the Board of Trustees at every opportunity. Jay Paterno was one of their candidates this year, as were returning trustees Alice Pope, a psychology professor at St. John’s University and a prominent pro-Paterno advocate and Al Lord, former CEO of Sallie Mae. Another person from the same group elected to the Board of Trustees is Adam Taliaferro, a Penn State football player who was paralyzed in an on-field injury, regained the ability to walk and to use his arms through long, hard rehabilitation, and is now a New Jersey state legislator and all-around inspiring figure.
I do think it’s fair, and appropriate, to criticize the Penn State alumni for electing these people to the Board of Trustees. But it’s not a decision that should be held against the current Penn State administration, including the majority of Trustees who are not doing anything to re-enshrine Joe Paterno.
- I am pretty sure it is not fair to criticize the Penn State administration, or for that matter the Beta Whatever fraternity, for failing to attend the dead pledge's funeral. I would bet anything that the family, which is already suing Penn State and the fraternity, made it clear that representatives would not be welcome at the funeral. Had they gone, it would have been awkward and self-serving. Had they gone, against the wishes of the family, it would have been awkward, self-serving, and cruel.
He’s precisely one of the leaders who should be held most accountable along with leadership and older brothers at Beta Theta Pi’s Penn State chapter.
Focus on holding the leadership and its adult “resident” responsible for what they organized, implemented, and/or failed to do by omission and you’re much more likely to get closer to solving the problem.
And the Penn State chapter of Beta Theta Pi’s leadership and that adult “resident” allowed and effectively encouraged it to happen through their actions and omissions that night.
It is unfortunate, but continuing to narrowly define this tragedy as PSU “culture” undermines and limits a constructive exchange about a pervasive/systemic problem occurring in the collegiate system. This is not unique to Penn State even if some want it to be. There are more than 40,000 kids.
His brother was not in a frat.
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/Frat-death-raises-questions-for-grieving-parents.html
"The Piazzas were thrilled their son chose Penn State.
Neither were alumni, but Jim Piazza was a longtime fan of the football team. The couple’s oldest son, Michael, is a junior at the school. Tim Piazza, who had his choice of Villanova, Lehigh, or Penn State, followed.
Michael never wanted to join a frat. Tim was different. He called his mother, Evelyn, 48, also an accountant, days before the pledge party to tell her how excited he was. The Piazzas said their son’s roommates said he was sober before he left for the party. Police, Jim Piazza said, shared some details of what happened next."
I’m hopeful that meaningful changes occur after this tragedy.
Honestly I think the rest of the students aren’t up in arms because it is a huge school. When you have a college with 40,000 or more kids, what the frats do positively or negative really doesn’t impact all the students and professors or their day to day routines or academics etc. It was a sad and tragic event but for the majority of kids to get “up in arms” over a small minority of kids who choose frat life voluntarily… I don’t see it happening. I tend to think that the view that Penn State is horribly damaged as an institution is perhaps overblown,…that was the opinion on these forums during the Joe Paterno/Sandusky events but that following year the NYT reported that applications were up and the beginning of the road to increased endowment, increased research dollars and increasing applications. I just don’t see Penn State’s huge campus falling on the demise of one fraternity. I think it would take something that impacts the students and professors very directly to cause a university to suffer a loss of applications and financial support. Clearly indirect association like a retired coaches or a single offsite fraternity doesn’t really impact the overall university. I do think that how the university reacts could impact the other clubs and greek organizations that have “houses” if the university chooses to do anything at all. I’m still not clear what sanctions a university can take on “all organizations” that have off campus housing based on the actions of one “house”…or how the national Greek organization for that house comes into play.
From watching the Today show interview, this does not seem to be the case. Mr Piazza seemed pretty incredulous that no one from the frat or the school showed up to either the wake or funeral. He said when he met with Penn State officials afterward, he brought the guest book and showed them and said something like, since no one from the school could be bothered to show up we wanted to make sure you saw this.
When Matt Lauer asked him what lesson he could impart from all of this to his own son, Mr Piazza said, if you see someone who needs help, please get them help. The family is convinced that if help was summoned earlier, his son would be alive.
He also noted that no one went to the hospital with his son, nor did anyone call the family or the brother to inform them he was being taken (finally) to the hospital. The callousness is beyond words.
There should be an uprising from students/alumni in Happy Valley/around the world on both the fraternity and the Sandusky case. Jay Paterno did not retire and he was in fact fired and is still trying to sue PSU to get his job back and the Board of Trustees elected him to the board. Gross…he believes he is entitled to a lifetime coaching position. He will likely provide a resolution to bring back Joe Paterno’s statue.
From 3 days ago…
http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/05/jay_paterno_doesnt_have_a_case.html
There is absolutely no excuse for any PSU official for not attending the wake and/or funeral. None other than preservation.
Same type of preservation that let the molestation scandal go on for years in their own PSU facilities.
These are five years old, but they still apply:
http://college.usatoday.com/2012/05/08/examining-the-benefits-of-greek-life/
Greek chapters (often >50 members…) have philanthropy calendars to help ensure that every member is involved in raising money or donating time, or both.
I suspect non-profit orgs could attest to their philanthropy.
This PSU fraternity failed miserably at practicing core Greek behavioral traits like caring/empathy, acting responsibly and doing so promptly, generally being helpful, and taking responsibility for the mistakes they made.
But this PSU house is the exception, not the rule. Most Greek orgs have a net positive impact on their members, their schools, and on society as a whole – in terms of their considerable philanthropy, in terms of positive character development, in terms of practical leadership experience and networking, and in terms of various other unquantifiable benefits of brotherhood and sisterhood.
The hazing can be reduced or removed where it exists; the drinking, not so much: kids drink at college, whether they’re Greek or not.
Good news is boring. There is enough philanthropy and other good things happening as a result of Greek orgs to fill every newscast at every media outlet. But the media likes to dwell on negatives, which is why you only see negative stories like this one. And if this is how you think most houses operate, or that they do nothing good, that’s too bad, because it’s simply wrong.
@cobrat the quote you attribute to me in your #487 is not mine.
But I am pretty sure that the reason that “adult” who was in some sort of supervisory role was not criminally charged was because he never appeared on the video. Seems to me each individual was charged based on what those 23 Grand Jury members viewed on the tape. So the jury was able to pick and choose based upon what they saw and who they believed “knew or should have known” that Timothy Piazza was dying and needed help. From the interview it is suggested that adult claims he was “sleeping” so I have to assume he never appeared anywhere on that tape. So no knowledge of anything could be attributed to him – he was not present.
ETA: @prezbucky that first link does not exactly support your contention - some of the things listed are really negative – #'s 2, 3 and 4 to be exact.
I don’t believe this for a second, thank goodness. I do know these kinds of kids from high school and mine stayed a million miles away from them. No values or regard for others are not the type of people we socialize with. I truly believe the majority of students (at PSU and all colleges) could never behave this way. This was an evil lot, all in one house, and yes, I think their upbringing had something to do with it, and those commonalities is why they flocked together.
The PSU image is so tarnished, they really need to make some changes, but that is unlikely. Adding this to Sandusky, this poor image issue will be around for years without something bold to replace it.
Would be interesting to compare mortality rates of fraternity members to those of soldiers in general including both combat and non-combat.
If I get bored, I may look into that. Some realistic assessment of the actual risk - on a scale from processing pay stubs to dropping out of the sky at night into a field full of people shooting at you ought to help people make informed decisions.
Beta (the parent org of the PSU frat) was formed by a group of young men who could have been classmates of Abraham Lincoln. Their motto is “men of principal”.
Greek organizations no longer serve a purpose and should go away. Any good they do can be accomplished without the need for exclusivity.
@HarvestMoon1, I’ll concede the drinking. The first link was fairly accurate there, too. Drinking should be decreased, period.
My own hunch is that the 18 individuals who were charged is a “mixed bag” and there very well may be some that simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time – some that weren’t all that much different from your average college student.
Having said that I am going to go out on a limb and say I suspect there was a bad element in the leadership of that frat – among the older members. There were a few things that really jumped out at me in that Presentment that I found disturbing. One was the name given to the group chat that they used to communicate with the pledges. I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist but there is something profoundly wrong with any young man or men that would author something like that. One would think it would be psychologically uncomfortable for any young man to look at that coming up on their phones on a daily basis.
@prezbucky how about #4???