They just threw this kid away? None of his fraternity friends went with him to the hospital, visited him in the hospital, went to the wake, or attended the funeral? wth?
To me that suggests that they intentionally did not call 911, these student were pretty sure he was going to die. That makes me question the lack of felony charges.
I get that these kids were probably scared and that groupthink probably contributed to this tragedy, but the fact that the frat bros. were more concerned about protecting themselves and their frat than they were about protecting a pledge says something about the culture of the house.
It seems to me that fraternity induction rituals can’t help but contribute to student deaths. At a regular party other students might not necessarily feel responsible for their fellow student (although obviously they should) but they aren’t actively responsible for making their classmate miserable. I can imagine it’s a short step from “make him drink something that’ll make him puke and smack him with a paddle” to “throw water on his face and smack him around to see if it makes him wake up.”
(This is the last time I post a link before reading the entire article. lol! But in a sense I’m glad they listed some challenges as well as some of the better sides to Greek orgs – makes the source seem fair/credible.)
By this logic, Piazza was also evil with poor upbringing. You want to take that line of thinking to its logical conclusion?
This type of thinking does not help the situation.
@MomfromPA15317 Too bad your friend’s son wasn’t there, maybe he would have acted like a normal person and got help whether it was a frat brother or transient in the street because that is what a decent human being does. These guys aren’t 12 years old, they are men for goodness sake. Not good men, that’s for sure. Since Piazza didn’t survive becoming part of this group I think that shows he wasn’t part of this pack, so @sylvan8798, not sure I get your logic there. I agree with the assertion that there wasn’t a decent guy among these 18, or the outcome would have been different.
@MomfromPA15317 have you talked to your friend or her son (the brother who graduated) to get their take on what happened? I’d be interested in their thoughts on the death since the voices of those being charged/their parents have not been heard.
@GnocchiB I have not. He now lives and works in a different state. I will see him likely over the summer or the holidays and will be interested in his insight. I suspect that for anyone that is associated with this chapter in anyway, especially as an alumni who knows the individuals involved, this is a painful time. As the national Beta Theta Pi President said in his letter, it is an embarrassment to be associated with this group. For those of us that hold our fraternal associations with pride, the pain cuts deeply.
I don’t suspect that any of those charged or their families will share their insight, unless they choose to defend themselves in court. Though the presentment and the video have spoken volumes.
MomfromPA: While I am sure your friend’s son is an honorable kid, it is quite likely that this behavior was happening while he was in this fraternity and that he implicitly or explicitly was involved in the hazing. He was just lucky that nothing horrible happened and that nobody fell down the stairs after the gauntlet. What did your friend think about her son being in this fraternity? I hear my friend’s whose kids have joined say that their kid’s frat is “one of the good ones”. It is doubtful that none of those frats, especially at big schools, are involved in this kind of behavior.
I don’t believe these are some horrible kids whose parents did not teach them right from wrong. I know parents of fraternity guys who have absolutely taught them how to behave. The kids join a frat not knowing what it will be like and once involved, find it hard to say no and to get out. They likely did not believe that anything so bad would happen. They probably believed that Piazza would sleep it off and be fine. There is no excuse, however, for not taking care of a “brother” in distress. The fact that nobody called 911 or got help is just horrifying - good kids or not outside of this situation.
The fact that he didn’t survive is utterly irrelevant to whether he was “part of this pack”. He was attempting to be a part of them. He “flocked together” with them, as blueskies2day put it.
Unless, of course, you are suggesting that the other members recognized that he was not their brand of evil dude and intentionally shoved him down the stairs.
@mom2and I agree with you. I suspect that this ritual has gone on for awhile and he likely was involved in some version of it as a pledge and a brother. I suspect that each of these members participated as pledges and since it had not resulted in any serious injury in the past, they likely thought everything would turn out okay. They probably thought a big healthy guy like Tim would certainly recover, waking up after sleeping it off and they would laugh about it. My friend has visited the house and hosted groups from the chapter for canning weekends for THON. There was never an indication that these were “bad” kids. In the pictures that I have seen of these young men through the years they look very much like any other group of friends having fun. Outwardly they could have been any of the kids that your friends have described as “one of the good ones.” This chapter was honored with PSU’s Chapter of the Year in 2015. Their grades were toward the top of the rankings. They were designated as a “dry” house. Outwardly, there were not signs of trouble.
This is what makes this situation so frightening. I am certain that similar activity has been occurring in other PSU chapters and across campuses nationwide. I was never hazed. My daughter was never hazed when she pledged. I am a strong advocate of the Greek system. However, after reading this presentment, I am not certain that I would want my son to pledge, if I had one. Change needs to take place within these fraternities. Hopefully, the Piazza’s loss will not be in vain and parents will talk to their sons and make them understand this is not necessary to build a brotherhood.
My initial comment was in response to someone implying that these were an evil bunch who must have had terrible parenting. I believe this is far from the truth, which is greater cause for concern.
A couple of points. First, the fact that hazing occurs in other kinds of organizations doesn’t make it any better. It’s a kind of behavior that evolves from harmless initiation rituals. People can be cruel, so they add cruel elements to initiations, and they escalate over time. Adult supervision is required to stamp it out.
Second, don’t try to generalize fraternities from somebody’s experience in a sorority.
And I did want to react to this:
You did the right thing. Whether you call it hazing or not, it’s not how things are supposed to be done in Scouting. Leaving aside the likelihood that the previous leaders didn’t understand what it means for boys to lead, the point of cleaning up the campsite is not to avoid punishment, but because that’s what Scouts do–leave no trace. Most Scout leaders (and boys) I’ve known try to live up to the principles of the organization. I note that a lot of fraternities have stated principles that would not allow for hazing or other cruel or callous behavior; all they need to do is to live up to those principles.
I miss-spoke. Push-ups is corporal punishment and is also banned.
An example of hazing that I also removed is when a scout loses an item and must “sing” for it in front of all the other scouts. That happened in my troop and I stopped it when I became SM.
Huh, but littering is both rude and also illegal, it seems warranted to have some sort of punishment for it?
@philbegas - The scouts clean up way more than they create. Typically on a campout we will find a ton of cigarette butts, beer cans, bottle tops and other trash not created by the scouts.
So effectively it’s a punishment that the scouts didn’t completely clean up after everybody else’s crap?
Penn State fraternity hazing death: Tim Piazza’s girlfriend speaks out…Not a lot new but interesting nonetheless.
“Loyola Maryland does not have Greek life”
I stand corrected. Loyolas Chicago, New Orleans, and Marymount do.
Scouting isn’t about punishment. The way to deal with a campsite that hasn’t been adequately cleaned up is to point that out to the scouts and remind them of the Scout Law. Reminding them of the Scout Law should deal with hazing as well.
But reinforcing these principles requires adult guidance. It seems to me (to try to get back on topic) that this is what’s missing at some of these fraternities. The older brothers are supposed to be the leaders, but they are perpetuating some of the worst behavior.
I don’t see how push-ups is hazing. I would consider it working out. It’s better than forcing them to eat a whole bunch of potato chips.
A lot of hazing sounds innocuous, but that’s because you need to remember a key element of a lot of it: embarrassment or humiliation. Even pretty benign stuff from the olden days, like pledges having to wear a dumb-looking beanie (does that still exist?) is supposed to be a bit embarrassing. Being forced to do pushups in front of others because of a minor infraction is also embarrassing. Some of these things are (in my opinion) simply a manifestation of meanness, and it’s not surprising that they can escalate into paddling, branding, dangerous drinking, and worse. I find it odd that some fraternities seem to be incubators of both cruelty and public service.