Perfectionism

Parent Cafe
101

<p>I am sure that individuals with mental problems can have problems related to perfectionism. Some of these individuals cannot cope with failure and become non-functional. Some have no choices regarding any of their actions or emotions. Some have eating disorders which can be considered a type of perfectionism gone bad. </p>

<p>What I object to are the circular arguments which the OP wants to unload. As I understand it the logic goes something like this: admissions policies favor kids who are perfectionists, perfectionists are bad, therefore, admissions policies are bad. This type of logic serves no purpose. I would ask the OP to avoid the term perfectionism since we have beat it to death. What is it about admissions policies which you see as undesirable and would like to see changed?</p>

102

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<p>Heh, I was going to say this.</p>

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<p>The choice is not mediocrity vs. perfectionism. False dichotomy.</p>

<p>Look, I have some perfectionist tendencies. I had a lot more of them as a kid. I keep them off in situations where they are maladaptive, of which there are many. In my undergrad experience, for instance, perfectionism was horribly detrimental most of the time. You absolutely needed to understand the concept of selective neglect to get by, to be able to prioritize reasonably.</p>

<p>I am amused that people keep citing engineering and sciences as fields where perfectionism is required. In some aspects, they are right - you need to be perfectionistic about your experimental design, you need to be perfectionistic when dealing with measurements that go out to several decimal places and need to be exact or close to it. But there is no such thing as the “perfect” system design - how would you measure such a thing? There is no such thing as the perfect research to conduct. There are many times in both science and engineering when approximations to some level are normal and acceptable (ever taken an analog design class?), and if you nitpick beyond that point you are just wasting valuable time.</p>

<p>Edited to add: I would agree that the medical field is one where perfectionism is generally useful.</p>

103

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I think I’d like my neurosurgeon to be a perfectionist.</p>

<p>As a matter of fact, I’d like my plumber and my electrician to be perfectionists as well…</p>

104

<p>do you want them to a be “perfectionist” in the true sense of the word…in all aspects of the life, or is in their capacity as a surgeon, because the definition of a perfectionist, from all that I have read, is that they strive for it everywhere…in all things…</p>

<p>I don’t know if I need my doctor to be perfect in every aspect of his humanity…</p>

105

<p>and in all that I have read, perfectionist don’t think they have any problems at all, though many around them do…</p>

106

<p>There is “perfectionism” as a personality trait, and there is “perfectionism” as a psychiatric disorder. </p>

<p>The former makes life harder for the “perfectionist”, but it also makes him/her usually very successful at what they do. The latter is a disability. When we are talking on this forum about our kids being “perfectionists”, only a small fraction of the cases fitts the second category.</p>

<p>I don’t need my doctor to be “perfect in all aspects of his humanity”, but if he is striving to be - kudos to him.</p>

107

<p>cgm, did you mean to say: “Do you want them to be “perfectionist” in the pathological sense of the word”…because isn’t that what you are talking about? Which contradicts even one of the quotes you posted and was quoted again in post 103. Note the phrase: “In its pathological form…” which seems to suggest, as many of us have already suggested, that perfectionism can be viewed as a continuum, and is not the black and white concept that you continue to suggest.</p>

<p>Of course we should be concerned about perfectionism developing into a pathology in ourselves or our children. But this can be done only if we allow ourselves to look at this entire concept differently, without all the negativity. Here are some “tips” I came across on dealing with perfectionism in giftedness children - in a way that also values their perfectionism (and although I did not have much guidance in this area while raising my gifted/aspie son with numerous perfectionist tendencies, this pretty much mirrors the attitudes that I was able to develop over time):</p>

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<p>[Perfectionism</a> in Gifted Kids: Helping Gifted Children Reduce Stress and Enjoy Success](<a href=“Suite 101 - How-tos, Inspiration and Other Ideas to Try”>Suite 101 - How-tos, Inspiration and Other Ideas to Try)</p>

<p>[by the way, I work in a law firm among many perfectionists, although most are not pathological in the true sense of THAT word. Not to mention that I too have several perfectionistic tendencies, which I have been struggling with all my life. Today, perhaps I should consider myself a “recovering” perfectionist - one who has learned to cope with the most negative aspects of this trait, and to use the positive aspects of it in ways that have benefited me and others. Almost perfect, eh? ;)]</p>

108

<p>“There is “perfectionism” as a personality trait, and there is “perfectionism” as a psychiatric disorder.”</p>

<p>There is no psychiatric disorder called perfectionism. The closest you might be able to come is the obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (which is not OCD) where it is one of a list of traits – but four are needed for a diagnosis to be made. And even then, it must interfere with the completion of a task. </p>

<p>The DSM-IV-TR, a widely-used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines that for a patient to be diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, they must exhibit at least four of the following traits:</p>

<p>Preoccupation with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost</p>

<p>Showing perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)</p>

<p>Excessive devotion to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
Being overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)</p>

<p>Inability to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value</p>

<p>Reluctance to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things</p>

<p>Adopting a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes</p>

<p>Shows rigidity and stubbornness</p>

109

<p>“and in all that I have read, perfectionist don’t think they have any problems at all, though many around them do…”</p>

<p>CGM,
I haven’t seen one person that admits to being a perfectionist that intimated or expressed not having any problems. Try listening to people who admit to being perfectionists or have those tendencies instead of relying on a negative definition.</p>

110

<p>I forgot to put quotes around the DSM description I posted.</p>

111

<p>Oh man parts of this post make my blood boil but I’ll try and tone it down. </p>

<p>I think the problem here is lack of an agreed upon definition. Yes it’s good to be detail-oriented to some degree. Yes, it’s good to pursue excellence. But when I use the word “perfectionism” I am talking about the thinking errors that often accompany the drive to be perfect in every area of life. </p>

<p>As a perfectionist myself, I find it pretty offensive when people say that perfectionism has “no negative qualities.” I have seen perfectionism take my life and turn it upside down. </p>

<p>No, there is no clinical “DSM” definition of perfectionism. But…uhh I don’t want to get into this because I hate the DSM. Basically perfectionism is taken pretty seriously in the clinical world, at least in the inpatient and outpatient clinics I have attended. Just as there are groups and individual therapy for mood disorders, eating disorders, drug/alcohol abuse, etc, there are groups and individual therapy for perfectionism. </p>

<p>edad mentioned an example of perfectionism in sports. I’m not quoting exactly so don’t flame me but I believe he said something like he would rather be the perfectionist in the game than the person in the stands drinking beer. First of all, although the perfectionist on the field may be viewed as “successful” by society, I would argue that what goes on in his/her mind is pretty dysfunctional and I would guess that he/she is a pretty miserable person. Furthermore, I would argue that the perfectionist would end up in the stands drinking beer. Perfectionism is black and white. Its you are the best or you are a failure. I swam for 10 years. I made it to the national level. When I ended up with 3rd place, I stopped competing. I haven’t touched the water in 4 years now. The thought of getting in the pool and swimming laps makes me queasy. I could never face the fact that I am probably a terrible swimmer at this point, or at least below what I used to be. Because I was not the best, I am horrible so therefore I might as well not even try. That is why I have nearly narrowed down “what I do” to almost nothing. It’s rather pathetic. </p>

<p>I didn’t realize until I was put in a psychiatric hospital how much perfectionism has ruled my life. It is perhaps the leading player in my mood disorder. I now fight it on a daily basis. I’m learning to be okay with getting low As like 92s, 93s, to try new things and be okay with not being good at them, to tolerate people letting me down in relationships sometimes, to accept my body. In the past this stuff would have sent me over the edge. </p>

<p>It’s great if you pursue excellence or even if you call yourself a perfectionist and still function in a healthy way. I just want to put it out there that perfectionism can really take a toll on people.</p>

112

<p>ADad (in response to your Post #100): I have been consistent in maintaining that perfectionism is a positive attribute. I have also been consistent in discussing perfectionism within a performance-based context. I agree with edad that “individuals with mental problems can have problems related to perfectionism.” I maintain that perfectionism is neither a mental problem nor the cause of mental problems. I do not think that there are negative aspects to perfectionism. </p>

<p>With regard to the specific posts you listed, my responses are these: </p>

<p>Posts 53 (and 111): There are many rewards for perfectionism, but there is no guarantee that one’s high performance will always be superior to another’s high performance.</p>

<p>Post 56: Perfectionism does not discourage risk-taking.</p>

<p>Post 63: This is a description of OCD, not a description of perfectionism.</p>

<p>Post 70: The “perfect” cannot be “the enemy of the good,” because perfectionism is good.</p>

<p>Post 75: There is no established clinical definition of perfectionism as a mental disorder.</p>

<p>Post 97: Perfectionism cannot “turn into” OCD.</p>

113

<p>“Perfectionism is one of the most common personality traits in OCD. Indeed, some researchers have described obsessive-compulsives as the ultimate perfectionists.”
[BBC</a> - Science & Nature - Human Body and Mind - Obsessive behaviour: the facts](<a href=“http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/articles/disorders/ocd.shtml]BBC”>BBC - Science & Nature - Human Body and Mind - Obsessive behaviour: the facts)</p>

114

<p>TrueCruncher and edad: it sounds like your view is that perfectionism is one of the good things can become distorted or misused. Is that right?</p>

<p>For example, medications are generally good but can be misused. When misused, there is substance abuse. The problem in that event is not that medications are bad but rather that they are being misused.</p>

<p>Cleanliness is generally good but can be overdone. When overdone, there may be OCD. The problem in that event is the OCD, not the cleanliness.</p>

115

<p>I agree that perfectionism can play a huge part in certain disorders – OCD and eating disorders in particular. We know it shows itself in certain disorders and needs to be dealt with – it is still not in and of itself a diagnosis at this time. I respect someone saying, “Perfectionism played a big part – a huge part – in my disorder” but I have a problem with people labeling those who work hard and aim for Ivy League schools as perfectionists as if it is a negative – people they have never met in real life. It’s dicey to “diagnose” people over the Internet even if you have the credentials to diagnose at all. Some perfectionists do get into trouble with certain disorders just as some people who start dieting get into trouble with eating disorders. But all perfectionists do not develop a mental disorder just as all teens who diet do not develop an eating disorder. It’s probably a very complicated biochemical/psychosocial process and in OCD the thinking is that there is a biochemical factor. The fact that a personality factor may contribute towards a percentage of people with that trait developing a disorder doesn’t mean the trait itself is always a bad thing. Some of these disorders are the “perfect storm”. A number of factors, both biological and otherwise, line up to contribute to the disorder.</p>

116

<p>Adad, I have spoken up more than once because some parts of this thread have annoyed me. First I really don’t see any purpose to the extensive and convoluted definitions from the OP. These just seem to lead to circular reasoning where we define something as bad and then go on to prove it. That approach generates a lot of words with no understanding or content. Next I get easily annoyed by psychobabble. Citysgirlsmom cited a great example: the BBC article which was probably written by a health columnist and refers to “some researchers” without providing any useful information or even a basic citation.</p>

<p>Fortunately we have the DSM which tries to bring some precision and standardization into the mental health terminology. Perfectionism is not defined as a disease but excessive perfectionism is part of the definition of OCD. As you describe it this is perfectionism that somehow became distorted or misused. Actually I think we can be a little more precise than that. Healthy behavior involves choices. A lack of choice is unhealthy. Perfectionism can be a powerful positive force for individuals who make choices. It is important to be able to decide when to strive for perfection and to focus that energy. It is important to be able to cope with shortcomings and failures. OCD means obsessive and compulsive without the ability to make choices, control behavior, or control emotions. This is similar to addiction where the addiction has taken over and the individual has no control. Again lack of control and lack of ability to make choices are the basic problems. Cleaning, organizing, striving for perfection, eating, and collecting thing are activities, not diseases. The problem is lack of control and compulsion behavior, regardless of the activity involved.</p>

117

<p>And once agin, I fail to see the connection between OCD and perfectionism… Truly, does someone want to explain? I’d be much obliged.</p>

118

<p>Actually, there is no specific connection between OCD and perfectionism; it is OCPD (obsessive compulsive personality disorder) that includes excessive perfectionism in its DSM-IV definition – not OCD, and these two disorders are very different. </p>

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<p>[Obsessive-compulsive</a> personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“Obsessive–compulsive personality disorder - Wikipedia”>Obsessive–compulsive personality disorder - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>[Obsessive-compulsive</a> disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive-compulsive_disorder]Obsessive-compulsive”>Obsessive–compulsive disorder - Wikipedia)</p>

119

<p>That’s what I thought scansmom, but all the posters keep referring to OCD, not OCPD…?</p>

120

<p>Yes, perfectionism is tied to OCPD. But research is turning up a correlation between perfectionism and OCD as well. If you do a search on “correlation between perfectionism and OCD” you will find some scholarly articles on some of these studies. In particular, there is one by Frost that is quite interesting. It would be easier for you to do a search and read about the different types of perfectionism, the definitions used, the studies performed, etc. than for me to try to communicate it. It’s not possible to cut and paste from the one that I found most interesting.</p>