<p>So are there unhealthy conditions associated with decreased or lacking perfectionism? Would this mean that they do things in a sloppy fashion and don’t care or they have a lack of motivation and concern? I think I know a few of these. Many are depressed and just don’t care. Ten plus percent of the population is on alcohol or drugs and another large percentage is numbed out on TV and spectator activities.</p>
<p>starbright, think you left out a comma or something in line 12 of your post!!!</p>
<p>and time cruncher, we use links and information from other sites all the time, and generaly, just attach a link to the site…your post, well, what can I say, it tis a perfect example</p>
<p>sometimes good enough is good enough- sometimes how a bed is made, is good enough, sometimes how clothes are folded is good enough, sometimes the paper is good enough</p>
<p>part of life is setting priorities, and knowing that in some areas, things have go to give- </p>
<p>would I want a doctor who was a “perfectionist” in her doctor persona, absolutely, do I need her to be perfect in all she does, no, nor would I want her to be</p>
<p>I would wnat her to be human and understand human imperfections, and have a certain respect for her fellow humans who don’t seek “perfection” in all aspects of the lives</p>
<p>My H is a contractor and it is very important that his work is as excellent as he can make it, however, he is the messiest person in the kitchen</p>
<p>My oldest D always had a messy room…she didn’t seek perfection there, but she sought excellence in her school work</p>
<p>Its all about balance and when you see someone who is say, messy, and you judge them for not seeking excellence in all they do, you are judging them without a full picture of who they might be</p>
<p>My car is messy- I have 4 dogs, but my house is very neat and organized…should you make assumptions about my life because you see one aspect of it? </p>
<p>Do I care if my doctor is imperfect in many other aspects of their lives- nope…I care about the doctor part…</p>
<p>^ Now THIS is the kinda person I want to live and work with. </p>
<p>Toneranger, do I sound perfectionistic too? Don’t get me wrong: I have as many ‘issues’ as the next person, including defensiveness and competitiveness, but I’m a huge, huge fan of good enough. Really! Look how badly I provide citations, for example! :)</p>
<p>Toneranger, using an everyday understanding of the word perfectionism you are right. So if perfectionism is anything approaching being detailed oriented, working really hard, or caring about doing well, or being super-duper good at one thing, then yes, of course its a good thing and many of us would pride ourselves perfectionists. Likewise, not doing those things is bad. That is not a disorder. <em>But that is not the construct I am trying to get at</em> </p>
<p>What I am trying to address is perfectionism as its defined by those that study it, using a more accepted definition, which involves behavior driven by false and harmful beliefs (which, in turn, can interfere with effective functioning). </p>
<p>For example, the belief that anything less than perfection is intolerable might be captured with people who say things like I can’t stand any people who won’t aim for perfection or everyone expects perfectionism." People with such beliefs <em>might</em> be high-achievers but also engage in a lot of self-beating, and also have a lot of relationship problems. They may also be low achievers because they are paralyzed with fear. In contrast, one can find high-achiever who do not have those perfectionistic beliefs thus they perform well but also feel good about themselves and do not have relationship problems. </p>
<p>Being excellent at your job or striving for your best is NOT the issue here. One can do those things without harboring perfectionism beliefs. But carrying around dysfunctional beliefs about oneself and others often does seem to be a problem (and does not necessarily result in one being excellent or even good at anything).</p>
<p>starbright, what is it that you hope to accomplish? You seemed determined to stick with definitions of perfectionism which are negative and then argue that perfectionism is a negative attribute. Is there any purpose to you circular, closed logic?</p>
<p>because edad, what you described as perfectionism is NOT perfectionism…it is seeking excellence, to very different concepts</p>
<p>and if you read about perfectionism, it is seen as generally a negative and most people find perfectionist rather annoying…</p>
<p>I would rather someone who can make a mistake and see the joy in the that, someone who can see the silver lining, someone who isn’t caught up in having to be right, perfect, flawless in all they do…</p>
<p>being perfect, in work is one think k, trying to be perfect in all you do, is really kind of sad</p>
<p>edad, I don’t know one person in my arena of life that finds “perfectionism” an attractive attribute</p>
<p>If I said striving for excellence vs wanting to be perfect…well…which would you rather deal with</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is exactly what I have been wondering - what IS the real issue here? To somehow “convince” perfectionists that they should choose a different way of life? Personally, I don’t know too many perfectionists (and I know a lot of them) who CHOSE to be that way!! Fifty years ago, we believed that autism was caused by refrigerator mothers, a couple of decades ago, we believed that being gay was a mental disorder; I wonder if we will laughing at some of our current misconceptions 50 years from now?</p>
<p>^Thanks for asking. If I may refer you to my first post, which started this thread, you will find the questions that intrigue me (my goal being to discuss them because I find the topic so interesting). </p>
<p>My goal was not to debate the conceptual definition of perfectionism (which is why I attempted to provide it in the first post). Unfortunately, we had to digress a bit, since one can not have a meaningful discussion of any topic if we are each talking about different things. Discussing the questions I posed was impossible if the word perfectionism morphed into whatever we wanted it to be. </p>
<p>Having said that I apologize if Ive been confusing, and also if I have offended anyone.</p>
<p>Scansmom, interestingly, I know very few perfectionists (or I may know more but not realize it).</p>
<p>With respect to your privacy, but if you would be willing to share: is there something unique about the contexts in which you work and live where you think you see more perfectionism? For example, perhaps they are found more in some occupations than others? </p>
<p>I want to apologize again because I really had no interest in yelling from the rooftops about the negative thoughts of perfectionists. I had wanted to take that as a given from the outset, with the info I provided, and move on to discuss substantive issues (e.g. the implications for the admissions systems nowadays that may fuel existing tendencies of perfectionism, and potentially create classes full of perfectionists).</p>
<p>I work in a medical lab. This is an area where you might want to see some employees with perfectionist tendencies. Lab errors contribute to the 100,000 deaths/year caused by medical errors. Fortunately we only directly kill a few people strictly due to lab error. In the past I would say we had a high percentage of perfectionists. Poor wages, poor job security, and lack of advancement have taken a toll. You will be happy to learn that as a whole recent new employees are decidedly below average as perfectionists and have marginal abilities.</p>
<p>Actually when we discussed perfectionism, I have been thinking of choices made outside of the workplace. I have engaged in a number of highly competitive sports. It is amazing to see people push themselves beyond levels you would think humanly possible. For many of us this push also does indeed have negative aspects. We do not want to tolerate falling short of our goals. We do not want to lose and we often need to learn to cope with repeated failure. I view the negative aspects as part of an overall positive experience. I would rather try and fail, rather than sit in the audience, drinking beer and see “my” team win. I think we need a lot more perfectionists, even if that can mean being dissatisfied part of the time.</p>
<p>Starbright,</p>
<p>It seems you made many assumptions in your original post and I believe that is why the discussion did not unfold as you wished.</p>
<p>I also think you have aligned an emphasis on stellar candidates in the college admissions process with perfectionism. Sounds like a neat little cause and effect but in reality it is complex. </p>
<p>As for perfectionism, the assumptions made by those who are not perfectionist, I found surprisinginly negative and indicate to me that those people may not have a real understanding of the trait. Calling a perfectionist boring, unimaginative or inept at relationships is really insensitive and judgmental. Further more, attributing all that persons bad qualities to perfectionism is assumptive and unfair. </p>
<p>All of you have negative and positive character traits. Some people on this thread were brave enough to admit that they are perfectionists, even in light of a VERY negative original description of it. I have found that most people’s greatest strength can also be their greatest weakness. Perfectionism isn’t necessarily something that you turn on for work and turn off in your personal life so most who have that trait have to learn to manage it, just as I’m sure each and every one of you non perfectionists have to learn to manage certain personality traits that serve you well in one setting but not in another. It’s not a pathology or mental illness that needs to be “gotten over or fixed”. </p>
<p>As for fields that probably draw a lot of perfectionists, I would say anything that requires great attention to detail and maybe with the hands: surgeons, graphic designers, architects, trim carpenters, etc.</p>
<p>…mathematicians, scientists (hard science, anyway), engineers, chess players, competitive athletes, musicians and other performers…</p>
<p>I guess that leaves out lit and psych majors who think the rest of us are crazy anyway.</p>
<p>lets look at the how perfectionism is seen in the world:</p>
<p>[Perfectionism[/url</a>]
What is perfectionism?
Perfectionism is:</p>
<p>the irrational belief that you and/or your environment must be perfect
the striving to be the best, to reach the ideal, and to never make a mistake</p>
<p>an all pervasive attitude that whatever you attempt in life must be done letter perfect with no deviation, mistakes, slip ups, or inconsistencies</p>
<p>a habit developed from youth that keeps you constantly alert to the imperfections, failings, and weakness in yourself and others</p>
<p>a level of consciousness that keeps you ever vigilant to any deviations from the norm, the guidelines, or the way things are ``supposed to be’'
the underlying motive present in the fear of failure and fear of rejection, i.e., if I am not perfect I will fail and/or I will be rejected by others
a reason why you may be fearful of success, i.e., if I achieve my goal, will I be able to continue, maintain that level of achievement
a rigid, moralistic outlook that does not allow for humanism or imperfection
an inhibiting factor that keeps you from making a commitment to change habitual, unproductive behavior out of fear of not making the change ``good enough''
the belief that no matter what you attempt it is never ``good enough'' to meet your own or others' expectations</p>
<p>wikipedia</p>
<p>Perfectionism, in psychology, is a belief that perfection can and should be attained. In its pathological form, it is a belief that anything less than perfect is unacceptable. At pathological levels, this is considered an unhealthy belief.</p>
<p>psychology today test</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://psychologytoday.psychtests.com/tests/perfectionism_access.html]Psychology”>http://psychologytoday.psychtests.com/tests/perfectionism_access.html]Psychology</a> Today: Self Tests](<a href=“http://www.coping.org/growth/perfect.htm]Perfectionism[/url”>Coping)</p>
<p>the APA</p>
<p>[The</a> many faces of perfectionism](<a href=“Page Not Found”>The many faces of perfectionism)</p>
<p>…That’s an oversimplification, says Hewitt, one that conflates two very different things: the desire to excel and the desire to be perfect…</p>
<p>and this article</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/health/04mind.html?_r=1&oref=slogin[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/04/health/04mind.html?_r=1&oref=slogin</a></p>
<p>This looks like the same thing we have discussed. If you start with a grossly negative definition then you have defined the outcome.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>-Psychology Today, Perfectionism Test</p>
<p>Someone asked about how perfectionism can turn into OCD. If, for example, you have to write and rewrite and then rewrite again a single sentence before you can go to the next one, it can become a problem and have an obsessive-compulsive quality. There is a range with perfectionism and it is not uncommon to see it go hand in hand with highly gifted people/kids. And it usually manifests quite early, without parental shaping, etc. My youngest kid who, believe me, had no pressure on him to do anything as he was the last and we were tired and just in it for the enjoyment, was quite the perfectionist in preschool. His teacher told me if he thought he had made a slight mistake on a drawing, he would refuse to finish it and ask for another sheet of paper. Fortunately, she had lots of experience with gifted kids and worked hard on this with him. I asked every one of his elementary school teachers in his gifted program to encourage him to accept mistakes. I celebrated as much or more with him when he made mistakes without crying as when he did something brilliant. He’s functioning fine but his standard for what he expects of himself is still high and he does things with excellence because that is what feels good to him. I think we need to be careful not to pathologize all perfectionism. If that’s a kid’s bent, we have to accept it and work with it the same way we do with their other bents and try to help them to live with it in a positive way or else we are telling them that they are not OK the way they are. In a few months we will be inspired by Olympic athletes who spend endless hours just to shave 1/100 of a second off their time in a run or to gain another inch in a high jump. The Olympics are all about perfection and the ones who go the distance are the ones who set their standard higher than anyone has ever achieved. I don’t think that kind of perfectionism is instilled by parents, teachers or College Confidential – it’s a desire deep within a person to grasp and reach to the fullest of their potential. I may be wrong as to the artist but there is an amazing but incomplete sculpture to be seen in Italy by Michaelangelo that he destroyed himself because it was not up to his standards. Perfectionist? Sure, but then look at the Sistine Chapel or the David. Maybe only a perfectionist could achieve that kind of perfection. And we are all the richer for it.</p>
<p>In defense of those CC students and parents starbright believes “suffer” from perfectionism, I maintain that the college admissions concerns expressed by many CC students and parents are realistic. The college admissions process is intensely competitive. Admissions offers, as well as merit scholarship awards, are based upon subjective and objective criteria. Objective criteria–high school academic program strength, grade point average, class ranking, standardized test scores–are used by an admissions committee not only to uphold its college’s academic standards, but also to ensure that applicants are evaluated as fairly as possible, and are either accepted or rejected for appropriate reasons. Applicants seeking admission to highly-selective universities know that objective criteria often determine whether students are offered admission, and if admitted, whether those students are awarded merit-based scholarships. Selective universities crunch the numbers because they must, and college applicants must crunch the numbers as well.</p>
<p>Earlier in this thread, QuantMech (Reply #64) proposed that perfectionism is a human survival attribute. QuantMech’s post makes sense. Consider, for example, how infants and toddlers acquire physical skills and language skills. The abilities to sit, stand, crawl, walk, and talk are human survival skills, and young children naturally make an extraordinary effort to practice these skills until they are mastered–or, in other words–until they are perfected. Older children are naturally self-motivated to perfect more difficult skills, and adults are naturally self-motivated to perfect even more difficult skills. Perfectionism (the motivation to develop a skill until it is mastered) is as natural to humans as breathing. Mediocrity, on the other hand, is unnatural.</p>
<p>The “pathologizing” of human behavioral traits long regarded as normal (such as perfectionism) is a disturbing sociopolitical trend. UC Berkeley-trained private-practice psychologist Ofer Zur and marriage & family therapist Nola Nordmarken scrutinize this disturbing trend with specific regard to the DSM, which they consider to be “more a political document than a scientific one,” and which “is primarily driven and controlled by psychiatrists, insurance companies and the psychopharmacological industry.” (Zur, O. and Nordmarken, N. 2007. DSM: Diagnosing for Money and Power" Summary of the Critique of the DSM. Retrieved 02/29/08 from zurinstitute.com/dsmcritique. DSM: Diagnosing for Money and Power, Summary of the Critique of the DSM, offered by Zur Institute for Psychologists, MFTs, SWs and Counselors). Northwestern University professor Christopher Lane also scrutinizes this disturbing trend–specifically with regard to the psychopharmacological industry’s effort to create new markets for its products–in his book, *Shyness: How Normal Behavior Became a Sickness<a href=“Yale%20University%20Press,%20October%202007”>/i</a>.</p>
<p>edad and several other contributors to this thread have mentioned professions in which perfectionists are most likely to be found. I agree. However, I maintain that perfectionists are likely to be found in any workplace. I also maintain that performance standards in many professions, as well as in many goods and services industries have declined, to the detriment of American society. Mediocrity hurts people. Perfectionism needs to be valued, not vilified.</p>
<p>ADad, that sounds almost neutral in tone. All we need to add is an additional statement about people who don’t take it far enough and are lost in laziness and mediocrity.</p>
<p>ADad, have you actually ever read an issue of Psychology Today? It is a true piece of garbage about as far from science as you can get. There are usually plenty of quality articles such as “how to tell what your boyfriend is really thinking.”</p>
<p>TimeCruncher and edad: in your views, then, can perfectionism ever have a negative aspect to it? What are your views of posts such as #53, 56, 63, 70, 75, 97 that claim to report negative aspects of perfectionism?</p>