Perfectionism

scansmom · February 26, 2008, 10:42am

As, apparently, do many “experts” in the field.

How different, really, is the pursuit of “excellence” vs the pursuit of “perfection”? (other than we never use the term “excellentism” to describe the pathological version of the former?). For me, a distinction should be made between someone needing to “be” excellent, perfect, etc. (negative aspect, internal, focuses on value of self) vs wanting to “pursue” excellence, perfection, etc. (positive aspect, extenal, focuses on value of accomplishments).

vicariousparent · February 26, 2008, 11:20am

P3T:

That reminds me about something I learnt about Islamic art. The artist is expected to deliberately introduce an imperfection in every piece of art to avoid “competing” with God. For example, in an otherwise perfect geometric design of a fine rug, a slight departure from the perfect order is woven in. I thought it was a cool concept. Only God is allowed to be perfect.

abric1 · February 26, 2008, 11:51am

Over the past few weeks I have been reading a bit about perfectionism as I began to see/understand that it was having very negative consequences for my D, a college freshman. The literature differentiates between perfectionism and “maladaptive” perfectionism, clearly the kind my D suffers with. With D was at risk for this problem as she has some level of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and has always attended very demanding schools. Over the past few years I saw her struggling with the OCD–redoing a painting so many times that it went from great to worse; struggling to start to write an essay because the first draft would never be perfect. This year at college the perfectionism has become almost debilitating at times. She had a complete “meltdown” a few weeks ago over an English essay that was not coming out as well as she thought it should. Strangely, the problem has gotten worse second semester because she finished with a 3.925 first semester. She is now terrified of getting a B. Unfortunately, she is not a believer that things can get better or that therapy or medicine may help. The doctor prescribed Lexapro to help smooth out the generalized anxiety and I am trying to get her to puruse some cognitive therapy. SHe has refused the meds and says she has no time for the therapy. It is very sad to watch. When she is not in school, she is a completely different person. Has anyone had experience dealing with a similar situation?

QuantMech · February 26, 2008, 12:52pm

Does anyone else have an explanation for the prevalence of perfectionism, when it’s sub-optimal for the individual perfectionist?

I do–I suspect that perfectionism stems from a very strong focus on detail, and that it was a survival advantage, for a long time, to have a few such individuals in any group. The perfectionists were the ones who were able to differentiate a poisonous plant from an edible plant that looked very similar. The perfectionists made sure the spear point was firmly affixed to the spear, and that the rope was carefully woven, so it held up. The perfectionists would have noticed a small bit of rotten grain mixed in the storage bin.

Similarly, I suspect that the people with ADHD were the ones who prevented the group of mastodon hunters from being taken out by the saber-tooth tiger that was stalking THEM, while everyone else was focused on the mastodon.

Well, as titled, it is a crackpot theory; but I subscribe to “infinite diversity in infinite combination” (just the Spock-the-Vulcan part, not any other meanings that may have subsequently been appended to it).

QuantMech · February 26, 2008, 2:04pm

^^abric1, sorry to hear about your D’s very tough time. I don’t have any really good advice to offer, except to say that time and perspective will often resolve issues that can’t be handled head-on. Actually, I support your D’s decision not to take pharmaceuticals.

I am not a professional in any of the healing arts or social service fields. But for what it’s worth, here a few ideas:

Cultivate your D’s sense of humor.
Provide (frequent) reassurance that imperfection is not a problem.
Encourage your D’s nonacademic interests; help her find what’s fun for her.
Consider travel, if affordable and workable–a great broadener and a great source of perspective.

Best to you and your D!

lizschup · February 26, 2008, 2:20pm

Quantmech,

I like your theory, epecially the part about “attention to detail”. I notice many things that other people don’t, both good and bad. It has served me well in detailed professions that require both creativity and attention to detail, so I don’t agree at all with the concept some have put forth that perfectionists are afraid to try things and are consequently boring or stifled.

I also like Scansmom’s nuanced posts. Nicely done.

starbright · February 27, 2008, 12:44am

I think many/most people on this thread are making up their own personal definitions of what is perfectionism, so we are not talking about the same construct at all.

In our culture, the lay term of perfectionism is something people are often proud of (its a great answer to the interview question "so what do you see as your biggest weakness?).

In our culture, we value and reward work hard, striving for one’s personal best, high achievement, being accurate, not accepting failure, persisting in the face of adversity, and so on. And anyone with even moderate self esteem probably would say some of those things are true about them.

The thing is, that doesn’t make you a perfectionist. The clinical definition of perfectionism- which is what I tried to focus the discussion around- comes with a host of cognitive beliefs which are dysfunctional (that only a few brave souls on this thread were willing to admit applied to them).

edad · February 27, 2008, 1:39am

“The clinical definition of perfectionism- which is what I tried to focus the discussion around” Sorry, starbright but there is no clinical definition of perfectionism. It is not a disorder defined in the DSM. A preoccupation or excessive perfectionism is associated with OCD and eating disorders. Similarly, a preoccupation or excessive orderliness is also associated with OCD. That does not mean that orderliness is somehow a negative attribute or a disorder.

It appears that you are in fact making up your own personal definition. In addition because excessive perfectionism is associated with some disorders, you seem determined to attribute negative characteristics to all aspects of perfectionism. I believe your logic is a long way from perfect or precise.

TimeCruncher · February 27, 2008, 2:17am

edad is correct. There is no established “clinical” definition of perfectionism. Neither the American Psychiatric Association’s *Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders<a href=“DSM-IV”>/i</a>, nor the World Health Organization’s *International Classification of Diseases<a href=“ICD-10”>/i</a> defines perfectionism.

The so-called “clinical definition” of perfectionism you provided (and failed to properly cite) in your original post was borrowed from the website Coping.org, the personal creation of two Tampa, Florida Ph.D.s, James J. Messina and Constance M. Messina. Their website’s disclaimer states: “Material on this site is presented for informational purposes only. It is not intended to substitute for the judgment of a qualified professional who has examined or is treating any individual patient, client or student.”

I browsed the Messinas’ website, and in my opinion, it is chock full of psychobabble bunk. I wouldn’t accept their “definition” of perfectionism any more than I would run my life by the daily newspaper horoscope.

jessiehl · February 27, 2008, 9:35am

A student who pursues excellence, on the academic front, strives to get excellent grades, do excellent research, and probably to keep learning on their own time.

A student who pursues perfection, as I understand the term, isn’t happy with a 96% because they could have gotten 100%. Never mind that their desire to get all the possible points, and their working toward such a goal, will detract from their research and their independent learning (in which it will be difficult to pursue perfection since there is no metric by which to measure it).

Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Edited to add: There are some situations where I think that applying perfectionism is useful and necessary. If you are doing a social science experiment, for example, you need to make sure that ALL the possible confounding variables are accounted for. I think that trying to apply it all the time is terribly maladaptive. I guess my point is that you need to be able to turn it off, and to know when it would be better to do so.

toneranger · February 27, 2008, 11:31am

This reminds me of the other thread on those Danes, who set their expectations low and are the happiest souls of the world. I think it’s pretty rare to find a happy perfectionist. Life can never measure up to the standards they set for themselves. Plus it’s REALLY hard to live with them…
Some balance of setting goals and having realistic expectations seems to be the way to go.

edad · February 27, 2008, 11:46am

“Some balance of setting goals and having realistic expectations seems to be the way to go.” Why not a perfect balance of setting goals and having realistic expectations seems to be the way to go.

scansmom · February 27, 2008, 12:12pm

And who defines those goals and expectations?

Perfectionists are not created by their environment, WE are born with our pefectionist tendencies; it is also a continuum of behaviors. This is not a black and white thing, where either you are or you are not. And it cannot just be turned on and off. Although, for most of us, these tendencies do NOT rule our entire lives - particularly if we are raised and taught in an environment that supports our differences, and guides and teaches us so that we CAN reach a balance in setting realistic goals and expectations for ourselves and others, and are able to turn it on and off as needed. Ultimately, we may even become easier to live with (but if compatibility determines perfectionism, we must have a lof of them, based on current divorce rates!)

A personal observation: Humans seem to like to label other people - a LOT - and generally it is negative. Indeed, our country has nearly “perfected” the art of pathologizing any behavior we view as different from the norm. Or perhaps we are just excellent at pursuing it? (kind of ironic, isn’t it?)

(ok off my soapbox, I guess that perfectionist streak in me tends to make me expect others to be perfect - and think the way I do!)

tobia_e · February 28, 2008, 12:58am

How would you link perfectionism to OCD…? I can see a definite association with OCPD, but from my (limited) understanding OCD presents not as wanting to be “perfect” but rather wanting the “bare minimium” (not wanting to be sick/dead/a murder/a pediophile/homosexual/etc., etc). Could someone with perhaps a better understanding shed some light on this?

starbright · February 28, 2008, 4:02am

Leave it to the perfectionists to criticize my choice of citation, or how I cited! LOL.

Edad and Timecruncher: I grabbed an easy to read website on the definition of perfectionism to get the discussion going. However, I chose that which appears, at least by my glance, to be closely aligned with an established and accepted definition and measure of perfectionism (e.g. Frost et al, 1990)

Yes, it is not a stand alone mental disorder in DSM; only an important criterion for one. In addition, a recognized trait on which substantial empirical research as been conducted, primarily demonstrating its negative impact.

For those that would prefer something not so “psycho-babble" I submit to you some empirical research: every peer reviewed study listed in the PsycInfo database (for 2007 only). PM me if you want a pdf file of any:

Perfectionism and achievement goals in athletes: Relations with approach and avoidance orientations in mastery and performance goals. Stoeber, Joachim; Stoll, Oliver; Pescheck, Eva; Psychology of Sport and Exercise, Vol 9(2), Mar 2008. pp. 102-121.

Matches and mismatches: Partners, perfectionism, and premarital adjustment. Ashby, Jeffrey S.; Rice, Kenneth G.; Kutchins, Carolyn B.; Journal of Counseling Psychology, Vol 55(1), Jan 2008. pp. 125-132. [Journal Article]

Perfectionism in school teachers: Relations with stress appraisals, coping styles, and burnout. Stoeber, Joachim; Rennert, Dirk; Anxiety, Stress & Coping: An International Journal, Vol 21(1), Jan 2008. pp. 37-53. [Journal Article]

Complexities of measuring perfectionism: Three popular perfectionism measures and their relations with eating disturbances and health behaviors in a female college student sample. Chang, Edward C.; Ivezaj, Valentina; Downey, Christina A.; Eating Behaviors, Vol 9(1), Jan 2008. pp. 102-110. [Journal Article]

The relationship between maladaptive perfectionism and depressive symptoms: The mediating role of rumination. Harris, Patrick W.; Pepper, Carolyn M.; Maack, Danielle J.; Personality and Individual Differences, Vol 44(1), Jan 2008. pp. 150-160. [Journal Article]

Perfectionism and the five-factor model of personality. Rice, Kenneth G.; Ashby, Jeffrey S.; Slaney, Robert B.; Assessment, Vol 14(4), Dec 2007. pp. 385-398. [Journal Article]

Perfectionism and symptoms of eating disturbances in female college students: Considering the role of negative affect and body dissatisfaction. Downey, Christina A.; Chang, Edward C.; Eating Behaviors, Vol 8(4), Dec 2007. pp. 497-503. [Journal Article]

Cognitive and self-regulation aspects of perfectionism and their implications for treatment: Introduction to the special issue. Flett, Gordon L.; Hewitt, Paul L.; Journal of Rational-Emotive & Cognitive Behavior Therapy, Vol 25(4), Dec 2007. Special issue: Cognitive and self-regulation aspects of perfectionism and their implications for treatment. pp. 227-236. [Journal Article]

Cognitive links between fear of failure and perfectionism. Conroy, David E.; Kaye, Miranda P.; Fifer, Angela M.; Journal of Rational-Emotive & Cognitive Behavior Therapy, Vol 25(4), Dec 2007. Special issue: Cognitive and self-regulation aspects of perfectionism and their implications for treatment. pp. 237-253. [Journal Article]

The Perfectionism Cognitions Inventory: Psychometric properties and associations with distress and deficits in cognitive self-management. Flett, Gordon L.; Hewitt, Paul L.; Whelan, Teresa; Journal of Rational-Emotive & Cognitive Behavior Therapy, Vol 25(4), Dec 2007. Special issue: Cognitive and self-regulation aspects of perfectionism and their implications for treatment. pp. 255-277. [Journal Article]

Perfectionism, hopelessness, and suicide ideation: Revisions to diathesis-stress and specific vulnerability models. Blankstein, Kirk R.; Lumley, Crystal Hillis; Crawford, Alison; Journal of Rational-Emotive & Cognitive Behavior Therapy, Vol 25(4), Dec 2007. Special issue: Cognitive and self-regulation aspects of perfectionism and their implications for treatment. pp. 279-319. [Journal Article]

Suicidal thinking and perfectionism: The role of goal adjustment and behavioral inhibition/activation systems (BIS/BAS). O’Connor, Rory C.; Forgan, Grant; Journal of Rational-Emotive & Cognitive Behavior Therapy, Vol 25(4), Dec 2007. Special issue: Cognitive and self-regulation aspects of perfectionism and their implications for treatment. pp. 321-341. [Journal Article]

Perfectionism and deficits in cognitive emotion regulation. Rudolph, Susan G.; Flett, Gordon L.; Hewitt, Paul L.; Journal of Rational-Emotive & Cognitive Behavior Therapy, Vol 25(4), Dec 2007. Special issue: Cognitive and self-regulation aspects of perfectionism and their implications for treatment. pp. 343-357. [Journal Article]

Parental influences on social anxiety: The sources of perfectionism. Biran, Mia Weinburger; Reese, Caitlin; Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association, Vol 55(1), Win 2007. pp. 282-285. [Journal Article]

Perfectionism in young musicians: Relations with motivation, effort, achievement, and distress. Stoeber, Joachim; Eismann, Ulrike; Personality and Individual Differences, Vol 43(8), Dec 2007. pp. 2182-2192. [Journal Article]

Effects of Math Anxiety and Perfectionism on Timed versus Untimed Math Testing in Mathematically Gifted Sixth Graders. Tsui, Joanne M.; Maziocco, Mich

starbright · February 28, 2008, 4:09am

TimeCruncher, given my perfectionistic tendencies, I must clarify that I did indeed provide a sufficient citation. Re-read my post and you will see I wrote:

“Courtesy of Perfectionism here is perfectionism and it sure seems familiar to me after visiting CC this past few months”

The third word, Perfectionism, is in blue in the original post (at least on my screen), and it is an active link that takes you to the site. The system created that nice feature for me when I cut and pasted the address of the site.

originaloog · February 28, 2008, 7:38am

Perfectionists are often their own worst enemy. I have seen a friend’s career disintegrate before my eyes because of his perfectionism. He was unable to delegate relatively simple tasks. It caused him to be maipulative in order to insure things went his way. And this led him to have dishonest dealings with his charges. Not for monetary or vainglorious reasons but because he could not bear to have things go differently than he thought was best.

And he was a clergyman which made his perfectionism all the more painful because he was an intelligent and otherwise kindhearted person.

TimeCruncher · February 28, 2008, 8:10am

starbright: Regarding your posts #75 and #76, I maintain that you improperly cited the source of copyrighted material you used in your original post. James J. Messina, Ph.D. and Constance Messina, Ph.D., owners of website, Coping.org, state: “Original materials on this site may be reproduced for your personal, educational, or noncommercial use as long as you credit the authors and website.” You did not properly credit the authors and/or their website. Moreover, your use of an improperly-cited hypertext (AKA “deep”) link to Coping.org’s “Perfectionism“ (actually “Overcoming Perfectionism”) page, required interested CC Forum members to redirect to an unknown, and therefore potentially problematic webpage/website.

My professional background in educational publishing leads me to be exceptionally mindful of copyright law and intellectual property law. Legal issues regarding the use–and misuse–of web-based materials, and in particular, legal issues regarding the use–and misuse–of hypertext link technology have been before the courts for many years. Many of these issues remain unresolved, as Internet technology expands and evolves. The use of web-based copyrighted material requires the utmost caution.

Like you, I am a relative newcomer to CC, and as such, I am exceptionally mindful of CC’s Terms of Service. The Terms of Service address matters related to the use of copyrighted material (including “massive excerpts from any source”), and matters related to links to other websites (including non-authoritative sites). This thread has been informational and thought-provoking, and for those reasons, its removal would be unfortunate.

Finally, I continue to maintain that perfectionism is a positive attribute; I do not consider perfectionism to be a mental disorder, “stand-alone” or otherwise.

starbright · February 28, 2008, 10:28am

^ Wow, talk about use of a red herring.

Hey, I know, why don’t you go to all the threads, most actually, that include hyperlinks provided extensively throughout this forum (which I should note I have never, ever seen the moderators object to nor anyone criticize), and post this exact same set of paragraphs!

You must be a laugh at parties :)

toneranger · February 28, 2008, 10:43am

Wow - two perfectionists are duking it out right on this forum!
In any case, I agree that labeling perfectionism a mental disorder is too strong.
But I can’t see the trait as entirely positive. It has its negative sides - especially when you consider the impact on those who live or work with these folks. I’ve seen a number of bright good people self destruct (for example, get fired or divorced) due to out-of-control perfectionism. Agonizing over insignificant details, getting upset with minor variations, taking control over everything (“I’ll just have to do it myself”). Slowing things down to a crawl. Like everything, it’s all a matter of degree. Except for lawyers though…maybe it’s a good thing in that particular line of work - it can certainly lead to more billable hours… :)

Perfectionism

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