Perspective needed, please - orchestra incident

Parent Cafe
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<p>Last night my d’s orchestra played at festival. For those of you who don’t know, festival is an event where orchestras from various schools play for several judges who grade them on various aspects of the performance. </p>

<p>An incident happened last night that I am too close to, and would like some parental input from others, because I don’t want to over-react, nor under.</p>

<p>The orchestra played twice; once strings only, once full orchestra. There was a break between. My d came up to me during the break upset - said she and 10 or 12 others were getting points taken off their grade for wearing socks. (My d is a senior, her GPA and class rank have already been determined - a few points off her usually high grades will not affect her in any way, and I told her not to stress about it.)</p>

<p>However: The uniform is a floor length black dress that had to be ordered from the school. (My d’s dress doesn’t match the others because they changed companies this year, and she is new.) The handbook requires that the dress be worn with black, closed-toe, low heeled dress shoes. No mention made at all of socks or pantyhose of any color. I re-checked last night. My d has always (and will always) wear socks under her dress. Neither she nor I can stand pantyhose.</p>

<p>Last night between performances, the two male teachers went around to all the girls and made them pull up their dresses to see what they were wearing on their legs. My d was wearing “trouser socks” - the kind that cover the calf. Some girls were wearing knee-high socks - they all had to pull their dresses high enough to see if it was pantyhose.</p>

<p>I don’t care about the grade. I have a problem with male teachers deciding what kind of undergarments are appropriate. Since they had to ask the girls to hike up their dresses, it is clear that the argument that socks were distracting is not valid - No one could see them! In fact, on stage, the boys’ pants hiked up (showing their socks), and the girls’ dresses puddled, showing nothing! </p>

<p>The argument about uniforms making them look professional is disengenuous, considering that professional orchestras don’t have “uniforms.” </p>

<p>The performances earned highest marks, so the socks did not affect the scores! Should I say anything? To whom? Stay out of it? My d’s grade does not matter; it might to the girls who aren’t seniors. Am I missing anything? I did tell my d that in the future, if any adult male ever asks her to disrobe in anyway, she should refuse and ask for her mother.</p>

<p>I know I’m too close to this. Help me out.</p>

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<p>What color were the socks? Were the girls required to wear a certain color hose? Were the socks of the same color? If so, that sounds unreasonable of the teacher. If, on the other hand, someone is wearing neon yellow socks…</p>

<p>For example, our orchestra and band requires the men to wear black socks with their black pants and black shoes.</p>

<p>EDIT: Upon reading your post again…
Do you mean to say that the director required the girls to pull their skirts ALL THE WAY UP to their knees/thighs??? Or was he just checking for color, in which you would only have to lift the skirt up a tiny bit?</p>

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<p>Wow. And wow. I don’t know which part bugs me more–the grade devaluation or the inappropriate behavior of the male teachers. Have you talked to the parents of any of the other girls? I can’t imagine any reasonable person could think this was reasonable behavior; I would definitely follow whatever school channels exist, starting perhaps with orchestra director and continuing to administration, to strongly protest both the grade deduction (which is not in the manual) and the teachers’ actions, which border on sexual harrassment.</p>

<p>I do not believe you are over-reacting.</p>

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<p>doubleplay - most of the girls in question had black socks (not the fuzzy, wooly kind, either.) A couple had flesh colored pantyhose. No one had colors. The dress code does not address socks/hose at all for the girls. It says “black socks” for the boys.</p>

<p>An aside - the younger of the two orchestra directors has a trendy hairstyle - reminds me of a modified mohawk - where the hair is gelled to a spikey ridge down the center of his head. That is apparently not distracting, but socks are?</p>

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<p>I would be very concerned if a male teacher asked my girls to pull up their dresses. I think you should address the issue of inappropriate overstepping, if nothing else.</p>

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<p>Binx? If it were me? I’d raise so much commotion over this that they’d never ever in life again go near the issue of what anyone should or should not wear. </p>

<p>Reading your post has me boiling in rage. I have long instructed my daughter that under no circumstances is she EVER to comply with a request, instruction or directive from ANYONE in authority - male or female - that seems off-base, or makes her feel uncomfortable, or that unnecessarily requires her to provide information about her person, assets, etc. - especially in circumstances where others are treated differently, and, I’ve further told her that I will fully support her and help deal with the full fallout of any such refusal. This includes benign issues from the cashier at a store who asks for phone number at time of purchase, to more serious matters such as instructions that a police officer might issue at a traffic stop. Just because an adult or superior is making a request does NOT mean that she must comply, and she should refuse if the request is weird, or wrong. </p>

<p>As to checking socks, that is simply beyond ridiculous, and, asking the young ladies to pull up their dresses is just bizarre. As to the grades, that is even more outrageous - even if such a rule had been issued prior to the event, what in heaven or hell does it have to do with grades and measurement of academic achievement? </p>

<p>If it were me, I’d probably do something that would invite a response from civil authorities or a CSI team - that’s how angry the issue has me feeling. As a practical matter, it would probably be more useful to write a very powerful, targeted letter to the top ranked administrator, copy every single person all the way down the chain of command, and send it to the local press. And I’d ask for specific remedies, which would include but not necessarily be limited to (1) grades corrected back to their original numbers; (2) public apologies to the young ladies; (3) damages paid to the young ladies; (4) unemployment or other disciplinary action against the teachers; (5) psychological evaluations for the teachers, if they cannot be fired. </p>

<p>And then I’d threaten court action. </p>

<p>As to dress code requirements in general, they make sense if there is a valid case - sports teams for example wearing specific clothing for issues relevant to performance or physical safety, or to achieve a “uniform” team visual impact. </p>

<p>In your case, they make no sense at all, and perhaps at a minimum you should demand that these teachers provide documented empirical data points on the precise relationship between the wearing of socks and the quality of performance of playing a musical instrument.</p>

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<p>There’s a big difference between checking the color of one’s socks/stockings and checking to see what someone is wearing under their skirt.</p>

<p>If the director required the girls to pull up their dresses high enough to see where their stocking ended, a complaint should be made, and followed up on. I think it’s grounds for firing. My guess is that the director will defend himself by claiming that all he was looking for was the color, in which case you have him in a lie because he did, in fact, take off points for knee-hi’s (in which case he had to have seen all the way up the leg).</p>

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<p>You are not overreacting. I suspect yours won’t be the first call they receive about this.</p>

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<p>I agree with everyone here – this is completely out of line. The boundary should have been “what’s visible while performing” I think. If something looks odd onstage – white socks with a tux, for example – that’s noticeable. Whatever the girls wore that’s not visible without moving clothing aside is nobody’s business.</p>

<p>It was completely inappropriate, and could be interpreted as sexual misconduct to expect the girls to lift their dresses. I would contact everyone in the chain of command in writing and I’d set a timetable for a formal response. Depending on the response, I might just contact an attorney.</p>

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<p>I agree with most here. I think it’s appropriate to require a certain “look” that’s visible. It should be spelled out and, if not, no grade deduction should be taken. Having young ladies lift their skirts so a male teacher can look to see if they’re wearing panty hose is so inappropriate that, were it my daughter, I’d be organizing orchestra parents right this minute.</p>

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<p>Absolutely ridiculous. If the socks look like pantyhose when they are standing or sitting (without the skirt pulled up), there should not be an issue at all. Also, no way should the girls pull their skirts up. </p>

<p>My daughter sang in a choir where the dress was similar. Black stockings under a long skirt. No reason to check how high up the leg the socks go. Absolutely none. If the girls had to pull up their skirts for the teachers to be able to notice the difference, then obviously they looked okay.</p>

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<p>A little off subject, but important info for girls…
There have been cases where, under certain stage lighting, white underpants will show up under a black dress. It’s always wise when wearing a black dress on stage to wear black or flesh toned undergarments.</p>

<p>Also, girls…
never ever ever wear a short skirt (above the knee length) if you are going to be seated on a stage! The audience has a bird’s eye view!! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen this in band or orchestra concerts.</p>

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<p>binx,
Totally inappropriate! Even if they had checked the boys for sock color, which you said was in the dress code, and thought that the girls should also have the same black color, there is absolutely no reason to look higher then ankles. Because it would be easy to check the boys sock color while they were sitting down and playing they would not have needed to do a “line up”. Not that I believe that, but that’s what the Directors might say they were dong.</p>

<p>I would first double check with other parents/orchestra girls and then make an appointment with the Principal, other Orchestra parents and some of the girls. I would want the other parents there for moral support and so the Principal knows that it’s not just a disgruntled student spreading rumors.</p>

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<p>You are not overreacting to this. It was a petty, mean-spirited and even sexually inappropriate move to do this. Was it done in front of the boys? Even worse! I would definately contact the school about this. It indicates at the least poor judgment, and at the worst, someone who may actually be dangerous to the students.</p>

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<p>1) Not in dress code
2) Not visible onstage</p>

<p>Correct?</p>

<p>If so, then while there is a difference in degree, in concept this is no different than asking the girls to remove their dresses so that their panties and bras could be examined. It was none of the teachers bleeping business and totally out of bounds. </p>

<p>This is not like checking for legal and complete equipment prior to a sporting contest where players will not be allowed on the field unless and until properly outfitted.</p>

<p>This was for notation only as no wardrobe change was to be made. Therefore, any “inspection” or “presentation assessment” necessary, could and should have be done from the wings or the audience while the orchestra was on stage.</p>

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<p>my first thought is what the heck are the teachers thinking of having the kids at a competition that does points off for socks, and not know that til halfway through the performance.
second thought is the teacher’s response was inappropriate.
third is, this was not done for a sick-o reason, was done in a public setting, not with the girls alone in a room with the teachers. Just sounds like they freaked out the kids would not win because of the socks issue. Stupid, stupid and they should be spoken to, but get fired, sued, and lives ruined???
That’s over-kill.
at hallowed Juilliard, two or three of the girls would not follow the code and they had to tighten it up for all. still no socks/stockings in the mix as far as I could tell. Below are two student commentaries on the issue.
<a href=“http://www.juilliard.edu/update/journal/j_articles491.html[/url]”>http://www.juilliard.edu/update/journal/j_articles491.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.juilliard.edu/update/journal/j_articles508.html[/url]”>http://www.juilliard.edu/update/journal/j_articles508.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Personally, this sounds like a teacher who is insecure in his authority over the students. He is using relatively insignificant issues as an excuse to lower grades. It seems passive-aggressive, like he harbors resentment toward these young women but can’t take it out in other ways. </p>

<p>I once accompanied a director who behaved similarly. He had a strange unspoken hostility toward certain members of his orchestra. These same members were very good musicians, minded their own business, and did nothing wrong- but it was evident to me that he felt threatened by them. He found various ways to nit-pik. He inconsistently administered draconian punishments for small things. It was truly one of the oddest things I’ve ever observed.</p>

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<p>I’d go and find some like-minded parents and go to the principal and complain. This is totally out of line. I hate pantyhose too. There’s no reason that knee length thin socks aren’t fine with a long skirt. And the idea of a man pulling up dresses far enough to check is appalling. Definitely a sexual harrassment suit waiting to happen.</p>

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<p>Oldin Jersey,
I don’t think it’s overkill if what the OP says is exactly what happened. The man made the girls lift up their skirts high enough to prove they were wearing panty hose?? That’s very inappropriate for a teacher. I’m sure he knows it too. And if he does defend himself by denying it, it further discredits him by showing him to be a liar on top of everything.</p>

<p>If this were a boss doing this to his female subordinates, his head would be on the chopping block. Why should it be different because children are involved?</p>

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<p>I called a lawyer friend of mine (who’s d is my d’s best friend), and she recommended dropping it, since I didn’t care about the grade, and it was only socks, and my d doesn’t seem traumatized in any way (Although she’s indignant, d mainly thinks it’s hysterical. Wearing socks has become a whole new in-joke, I think.) But my friend also said I should do what I was comfortable with, and that the situation was “bizarre” - yet typical for our high school. I do have a strong instinct for what’s “fair”, and it bugs me to see kids treated like this.</p>

<p>I appreciate all the responses here, because you are making me feel a little more justified in my feelings.</p>

<p>I also called the school counselor for advice, and he sounded shocked, and advised me to call the vice principal. I left a message 2 hours ago, and am waiting for a call back.</p>

<p>I’ve attended these festivals for years, and have never seen anyone dinged for uniform. (Many schools wear the black tux/dress combo - but some wear polo shirts with various shades and styles of khaki pants, etc. Doesn’t seem to matter.)</p>

<p>I don’t think the teachers were worried about the results of socks on judging. I believe it was more one of control. This teacher is known for his arrogance, as well as irrational decisions, etc. Previous experiences with him are part of why I felt too close to the situation to make an accurate judgement. [While writing this, doupleplay posted - you are descibing him exactly!] I truly don’t want to over-react, but it just doesn’t “feel right.”</p>

<p>I took photographs last night during the performance (before I knew about the sock issue) - so I can prove that no one can tell who is wearing what under their dresses!</p>