<p>The male instructors actions were blazingly inappropriate and they need to be told off. I wouldn’t go as far as LTS, but I would write an assertive letter protesting the grade change and the “inspection” to the teachers in question, head of the music dept, the principal, and probably the supt of schools as well. Even if none of this affects your daughter, I would do it for the sake of any younger students whose grades are being affected and who have to continue to play in the orchestra under these instructors. Parents of seniors should be the ones to lead the protest against unfair practices and policies since their kids no longer have anything to lose. Often, the parents of younger students feel that it’s going to just cause more grief for their kids if they complain.</p>
<p>I’m not a fan of suing in general, but I do think that this is ridiculous and inappropriate and merits a unified protest from the parents involved.</p>
<p>VP just called back, and said he would look into it. Gave me his private line, and told me to call if I didn’t hear back by 9 a.m. Monday.</p>
<p>I would ask if the director verbally informed girls to wear pantyhose & not trouser socks. New instructions or rules might not have made it into the handbook. Could be a see-the underwear-through-the-dress issue. Also, are the socks visible as the kids walk on, stand, sit, change seats, etc? That could be a factor. Neatness & uniformity are important for performers.</p>
<p>I’d be upset about the director demanding girls pull up their skirts, though. I don’t get a creepy vibe, just sounds like a hotheaded reaction to seeing a few girls with navy or flesh colored trouser socks. Sometimes artistic types can heve meltdowns for things that the average Joe finds insignificant. Their judgment is not always the best & they often have trouble just “going with the flow.” Lawsuits and letters to the editor seem over the top to me. But I’d certainly ask around to see if other parents were unhappy & then take it to the principal.</p>
<p>binx, isn’t this the guy who sat your D last chair, when she is concert mistress of her youth orchestra. The same D who had the violin teacher at Miami begging her to declare herself a music performance major. I may have the details mixed up but I think that I have the gist of your D’s ability and his small minded policies.</p>
<p>Sounds like a power play, typical of some of the things that you see in power hungry band directors (I don’t sound bitter do I?). Inappropriate, heck yes! Should you make a fuss? Maybe, you are a good person to do so. Your D is almost out and won’t suffer the retributions of a crazy teacher.</p>
<p>Please keep us informed.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t bother to sue, either, unless the situation isn’t handled to your satisfaction. It’s not necessary, is expensive, and will roil your emotions for as long as the suit is pending. It’s awful stuff.</p>
<p>She’s actually only assistant concert mistress. :)</p>
<p>[And yes, the fact that all the photos I have of the orchestra don’t even show her because she’s sitting behind everybody else - and not only could I not see her socks, but I couldn’t see her face or any other part of her - yeah, that probably rubs a little salt in it.]</p>
<p>The dresses are, for the most part, floor length. Some of the girls have hemmed their dresses to skim the top of the shoe (not my d), and it’s entirely possible that when they walk, a portion of their black sock might show - but I seriously doubt if it ever shows even the whole ankle. And the material or color is not in question - only the fact that he wanted pantyhose, not socks. It’s entirely possible that he has changed the rules somewhere along the line. The orchestra probably has about 44 kids. If half are boys, then the 10-12 who didn’t get the message seems statistically significant.</p>
<p>Stickershock, if the director was concerned about being able to see through the dresses, he wouldn’t need a girl to lift up her dress so he could see under it himself. I’d put money on it- there’s no way this is an issue of conformity. It’s about control. He wants to control what the girls wear under their dress, even that which cannot be seen. Weirdo.</p>
<p>Oh boy, I’m with all of you- this is sure worth making sure the school administration “fixes” this one!</p>
<p>(an aside to StickerShock and your statement: ^^"Sometimes artistic types can heve meltdowns for things that the average Joe finds insignificant. Their judgment is not always the best & they often have trouble just “going with the flow.”</p>
<p>I was thinking you were referring to the Irish Dance world/over the top TCs/sock glue, etc.!..I sure was!)</p>
<p>Do make a fuss, even if you have to wait until your daughter’s final grade comes in. I made a fuss about this other director, years ago (post 17) because I knew all the students were too afraid of what he’d do to their grades. I went to bat for the kids. He had already destroyed one student’s academic record by giving her a D, and the school refused to change the grade. He blackballed another from getting into a honors organization. </p>
<p>Not everyone in the world is nice. You have to stick up for what’s right. And by the way, as a musician myself- musicians (some, not all) can be very jealous, insecure, vindictive people. Some music teachers (not me though) resent their own students for the possibilities that lay ahead of them, and for the opportunities that have already passed the teacher by. Some recognize that at the same stage of development, their student has far more talent than they did. Some are threatened by their student’s precocity. Some are afraid that their own inadequacies will be exposed. </p>
<p>Most of the time, bad people go through life and get away with doing little things like this that damage innocent people. Sometimes, though, a window of opportunity arises, like in this instance, for someone to be able to call them on it and get something done about it, perhaps prevent other kids from being hurt.</p>
<p>I don’t view it as the guy had anything sexual in mind - although weird as this is going to sound/read, it would almost be more in range of “normal” if he did. </p>
<p>I’m disgusted by the creepy control-freak behavior, which is just ridiculous as stand-alone, penalizing grades is far, far worse. Even if penalizing grades of seniors has no impact, it’s still a disgusting, inappropriate and just plain wrong course of action. </p>
<p>Unfortunately insecure people, control freaks and sometimes just plain clueless people abound everywhere, and remedies for correcting their impactive behavior are often not readily available, or else they’re expensive in terms of time and money.</p>
<p>I’m a HUGE fan of encouraging young people to say “no” and sometimes “H*** NO” in situations where compliance with what is requested makes no sense, appears unnecessary to accomplish the business at hand, has no precedence or known rule, or is otherwise harmful or perhaps even just plain stupid.</p>
<p>Doubleplay, I’m with you, I’d make a relentless, ugly fuss over this, just on general principle.</p>
<p>I also wouldn’t sue - too time consuming and expensive, with doubtful return, but, I’d do just about everything else possible and legal.</p>
<p>Maybe, if the teacher cannot be fired, he should be forced to wear pantyhose for the next 25 years. Every day. To class, and on weekends.</p>
<p>Just to make it clear, I wouldn’t sue either, but I think its suable.</p>
<p>Apart from the fact that this was not part of the dress code, the request that the girls hike up their dresses high enough to check whether they were wearing panty hose or knee socks is totally inappropriate and could be characterized as sexual harassment.</p>
<p>I’d make as big a stink as possible.</p>
<p>It was a power play</p>
<p>A question- does this guy have any kind of pattern with regards to how he treats female performers and maile performers- for instance, are the lead chairs generally split gender wise evenly? It may not be an issue, but there are some jerks who hate the ladies in orchestras</p>
<p>I would be furious…</p>
<p>My Ds had a soccer coach like this, who found weird stuff to call the players on all the time, and did things to embarrass them in public</p>
<p>The teachers both need to be put on notice for this, not to get fired, but they will be watched for another stupid stunt</p>
<p>And they need to reminded that any retribution for parents complaining will not be tolerated</p>
<p>OK, Somebody had to do this…I guess I’ll be the one…
<a href=“http://www.allposters.com/-sp/-Posters_i934010_.htm[/url]”>http://www.allposters.com/-sp/-Posters_i934010_.htm</a></p>
<p>can you clarify one thing? I assumed you meant the grade for the competition would be lowered, rather than the classroom grade?<br>
Classroom grade affects GPA, GPA affects college admissions so anyone not a senior is penalized for socks? THAT I’d rant about.<br>
I didn’t mean to belittle what happened, and it should be addressed asap. I just would hate it to be a cause for firing out of fear of a lawsuit.
Any Junior Harry Dinkle might freak out like this at a band competion.</p>
<p>ps- while your Ds grade may not be affected, it might make a difference to others</p>
<p>AND no matter what the stupid guy had said about dress code, if he said anything at all hiking dresses to the knee is ridiculous</p>
<p>And you don’t need other parents to care, if you are concerned, that is enough</p>
<p>ANd how stupid is it to do that between the two performances!!! Getting people all upset</p>
<p>What he SHOULD have done, if the issue was soooo important was to take pictures of the performance, shown them to the players if there was an issue of uniformity, and said, this is why we ask that you do such and such…no punishment, no silliness, just showing how it looks…I wonder if parents have pictures of the performance to show what a non issue the foot covering really is and how the teachers overreacted</p>
<p>I do have pictures, CGM - I went back and enlarged and lightened them, to see if I could spot anything out of line. I found a cello player with high, spike heels (dress code says low heels - don’t think she got in trouble), and a girl wearing sandals, no socks (who did get in trouble) but otherwise, couldn’t see anything at all. Except lots of boys’ socks, since the pants ride up. Girls’ skirts tended to puddle on the floor. Those that didn’t just show a bit of black shoe. No legs visible at all. D also tells me that another member of the orchestra fell yesterday and dislocated her hip. She wasn’t allowed to wear heels, so she had to wear a pair of black shoes that weren’t specifically dress shoes (not sneakers) - and she got in trouble. She explained her reason, and was told “That’s no excuse.”</p>
<p>I do think (and have thought) the guy has issues with females - but even more so, I think he has issues with the especially talented kids. Mostly we have been blessed with music teachers who teach because they love to. Every once in awhile, we get one who teaches because he/she didn’t make it otherwise. He is definitely in the latter group. He has a Ph. D. and makes everyone, including his co-director, and other faculty, call him Doctor LastName.</p>
<p>My S auditioned for the NY Phil last fall. This teacher’s comment to me when he heard was, “That’s the nice thing about the NY Phil - They let anybody audition.” Might be true, but what a thing to say.</p>
<p>Edit: OldinJersey - I just saw your post. No, the competition grade was unaffected - the judges don’t care what you wear. The students get a “performance grade” as part of their orchestra class grade, and this is the grade that was affected. So yes, GPAs and class ranks will be affected by the fact that they wore black socks instead of pantyhose.</p>
<p>galwaymom: LOL!! This director seems like a calm & rational man compared to some of the TCRGs in the Irish dance world, doesn’t he? I’m all for neatness, so sock glue made sense to me. But for D’s first Worlds competition (age 10,)I politely told TCRG I wouldn’t be tanning her legs. Over in Killarney, the doorbell to our B&B rang. Standing there was another mom, handing me a tube of tanning lotion at the instruction of the teacher. Our rebellion was obviously newsworthy in our school, and I was being brought into line. Even if that meant tracking me down in Ireland. This guy would micromanage EVERYTHING! Right down to the kids’ earrings. We were the non-conformists & he would shake his head at me with a bemused grin. He just didnt “get” me & my nonchalance. </p>
<p>Doubleplay, if the director told a girl “I can see your underwear,” he’d be criticized, too. He does sound like a control freak. That’s why I’d want to know exactly what the dress code was. Nothing excuses what he did, but the girls would have a better argument if they could claim that the pantyhose requirement was never communicated. Sometimes directors just get tired that their instructions aren’t followed. (Like in son’s grammar school, where simple dress codes are put in writing for musical presentations. Ex.: “Wear a red, white, or blue shirt for the Memorial Day concert. No sweatpants, please.” 75 kids comply, but two show up wearing orange & green plaid with sweatpants that have holes in the knees. Just looks sloppy, & I can see why directors get annoyed.) Sometimes they are having an unprovoked hissy fit & their actions turn off the young performers.</p>