Perspective needed, please - orchestra incident

<p>Re: earring – Dress code says “in general, no jewelry.” Girl last night asked ahead of time about wearing stud earrings and was given okay. (Don’t know why but she needed to wear earrings for some reason - newly pierced?) Last night, director says take them out. She says but they’re studs, and you said okay. He says but they’re purple. She says, they’re dark and tiny. He says they’re shiny. She says they are NOT shiny. He says They’re a little bit shiny. She took them out.</p>

<p>Did I mention that one boy’s shoes were so shiny I can’t tell you what color they were - just one big glare. All the audience noticed. Maybe they were patent leather - which I have no problem with. But they were a lot shinier than anything else on stage.</p>

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This guy sounds like a cartoon character! You should mention this comment when speaking with the VP on Monday.</p>

<p>StickerShock- not to divert the thread, but I am surprised the expose has never been written about the Irish Dance world. I certainly could fill up a whole books worth on it, as I’m sure you could!</p>

<p>Binx, what this guy said to your son, as well as his title-loving personality certainly speaks volumes about his insecurities. This incident is likely not the first time he has been totally inappropriate bordering on abusive. You are doing lots of kids a great service by calling him on this! Good for you!</p>

<p>Hmm…it seems that this dress code should be in writing somewhere to be enforced in this way…either by the school or by the festival. Where I am, the festivals also have dress codes and sometimes these are not the same as what the school requires. For example, our school allows the instrumental students to wear black slacks. Festivals require black skirts…no exceptions. I think I would, however, question how this was handled by the music teachers. That part sounds like it was not particularly appropriate. If it was a floor length dress, how high did the girls need to lift their dresses? Would this be a conversation you could have with the music teachers?</p>

<p>Binx, </p>

<p>This teacher’s behavior is quite over the top in four respects. </p>

<p>First, there is the issue as to whether this “rule” about pantyhose was made known and how. The written policy makes no mention of socks/hose for girls at all. I understand that proper attire is important in such situations (my own kids were in band). I would want to find out if the teacher had put out a memo or made any announcements as to what type of hose/socks the girls were to wear. Have you inquired of your daughter or others if any written instructions as to attire for this festival that mentions socks/hose was put out? Did the teacher make an oral announcement about this? I’m thinking he may not have because SO many girls were not in “compliance” with the black tights. If he was simply asking for black hose, and a girl opts to wear black knee highs or trouser socks, I don’t see that as noncompliant given the full length dresses they were wearing. It is not as if they were without hose/socks or wearing the wrong color. With a long dress, some women opt for black socks instead of pantyhose with the same result basically. So, first, I’d want to find out if any rule was handed out or mentioned in class with any specific hose expectation for girls. Even IF there was, it seems that wearing black hose could be interpretted various ways as to how to achieve that look under a long dress and I would not consider that as noncompliance if a girl wore black socks given the full length dresses. If the teacher had not given out written instructions, I hardly see how they were not complying (in addition to the written policies you have in hand no less). </p>

<p>Second, the expectation of pantyhose is over the top given the girls’ full length dresses. I think the only thing that matters is what the audience can see…so obviously white or colored socks might show when sitting down at the ankles. But beyond what shows at the ankles in a full length dress is a girl’s own business. I don’t think it is the teacher’s business what type of undergarments a person is wearing that does NOT SHOW to the audience. Yes, the shoes and the ankles may show but that’s it. Beyond that is beyond the teacher’s “jurisdiction” (LOL). If a girl wants to wear a thong panty, a panty or no panty, not his business. Above the ankle did not show to the audience in these “costumes”. So, it is nonissue what a girl had on that the audience cannot see. If he wanted black ankles, he got them in pantyhose, knee hi’s, or trouser socks. The audience doesn’t know the difference as far as what CANNOT be seen by them. To rule beyond that is over the top as that part of the attire was not seen by anyone. Are we now checking if the boys were wearing boxers or briefs? :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Third, I think the teacher should not be allowed to alter grades for what sort of hose was worn by any participant unless that was put in writing as far as dress code and as far as grading criteria. If the students were told “no black shoes, grade lowered”, that is one thing. If there was no written rule about hose, let alone no written grading criteria/rubric outlining points taken off with regard to hose, then he can’t just arbitrarily do that after the fact. It had to be made known ahead of time. </p>

<p>Fourth, it is entirely inappropriate for the girls to have to prove which type of hose or undergarments they were wearing under the dresses past their ankles (the part the audience could see). If the audience can’t see it, surely the teacher should not get a viewing to what amounted to their undergarments not meant to be seen by others. Asking them to prove what they had on underneathe by pulling their dresses up above the knee is harrassing to a female and just inappropriate for a male teacher no less to ask them to do. It is humiliating. It is also unjustifiable as that area of their body was not exposed to the audience/judges in the first place. The teacher should only be able to view what the judges or audience could see, not what a girl had on that she did not intend to publicly reveal beyond (or “above” as the case may be) that. </p>

<p>I am glad you chose to speak up. However, I also would put your points in writing and send them to this vice principal, copied to the teacher, even as you await his response. What people “hear” on the phone is not always the same. Also, you can articulate these points more clearly in writing sometimes. You might have to go one step further if not satisfied with the response, and then you’d have a record as to what you had stated/requested and hopefully also what they respond with. In the meantime, I would chat with parents of the other girls subjected to the grade reduction and the “inspection” under their dresses and see if any other parents agreed with you. They could either sign the letter you compose or ask if they are willing to compose one themselves. There is power in numbers. It is OK to go this alone, however. I can’t imagine you are the only one who thought this was over the top for the reasons I also wrote above. </p>

<p>I would not react in an over the top way (suing, etc) but I think bringing up these points to the teacher and administration and going from there is the way to go. One step at a time. I think you are doing that now. I’d love to hear their response. Again, I would outline these points in writing and mail them as well. </p>

<p>Best,</p>

<p>Susan</p>

<p>binx~</p>

<p>This incident was beyond ridiculous and your reaction is warranted, IMHO. I would agree with the attorney you consulted though…I’d drop it if there is no type of lasting damage to your daughter, grade or otherwise. One thing that concerns me about the reactions of some here, though, is the portrayal of what this errant teacher did as something “sexually inappropriate.” In the general sense that he should NOT have asked these young women to show any part of their covered bodies, yes, he was WRONG. BUT, to take this incident and categorize it as something “sexually abusive” or “sexually inappropriate” only serves to desensitize people to true forms of abuse/impropriety. I would draw the line here because I do not think that was the teacher’s intent at ALL, though he certainly had some issues, it seems.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

<p>Well, someone has to do it … when I read this, it reminded me of the time a few years ago when I accompanied a youth orchestra to a festival. Socks were a big deal. The kids were told (by their own conductor) if they weren’t wearing black socks, the group would have points taken off. I don’t remember what the equivalent was for girls, but the boys were sharing/scrounging around for black socks.</p>

<p>The indignation seems to have built as the posts go on - with one poster suggesting a man lifted the girl’s skirt. Surely if THAT happened, no one would be suing (what relief would you be seeking? An injunction against future skirt liftings?) but a complaint should be filed with the police. </p>

<p>The teacher overstepped, there is a kernel of purpose behind the whole thing and I would look to my child’s reaction to see if this is as bad as it might sound to some. If your d. is not overly concerned, I would just make sure the administrators, etc. know that the teacher overstepped and needs reining in. Everyone benefits when the rules are clear to all.</p>

<p>Thumper - My d says they were seated, and the director went around and said let me see what kind of socks you have on. (Note the wording - didn’t warn them ahead of time that “socks” were going to be punished.) I talked with one girl who was wearing knee-high socks that to me could easily pass for tights. But she was docked. I don’t know how far she actually lifted her dress. Maybe she just said they were socks. For all I know, kids who had on black knee high nylon stockings may have gotten away with it, since they look like pantyhose, if they didn’t admit to something different. D only had to pull up her skirt to below the knee, because her trouser socks came only half-way up her lower leg. (Tight-knit thin cotton - not ribbed. Bought specifically for this. She has skinny legs and regular knee highs - and pantyhose - don’t stay up and bunch up at her ankles.) Higher than ankle socks, but lower than knee socks. High enough that her dress could be “blown” (if there were a high wind in the auditorium?) and she’d be fine. She was not in danger of “exposing” herself to anyone at any time during the inspection, and she didn’t pay attention to what the teacher did with others. I think she was more embarrassed for being scolded for being dressed wrong.</p>

<p>You know, I feel silly for describing in detail what kind of socks my kid was wearing. It just seems so – ridiculous. Petty. Bizarre. Irrelevant.</p>

<p>I will be interested to find out if the teacher says he changed the dress code. The handbook is online (only online - we don’t have a hard copy) – we had to print out and sign the last page at the beginning of the year. I checked when we got home last night – The handbook does not address “leg wear” for girls. If this is a rule, it is a new one, and not communicated to the parents.</p>

<p>No wonder kids hate high school. What a meaningless exercise in control-freakishness. binx, I hope you’ll make the kind of scene these guys will remember on their deathbeds. </p>

<p>I like to go to high school concerts and listen with my eyes closed. It enhances the auditory experience and I don’t think what the kids wear makes an iota of difference. </p>

<p>How moronic does a male teacher of young women have to be not to recognize the inappropriateness of eyeballing their hosiery?</p>

<p>berurah:</p>

<p>I see your point, but I have to say that, as a male, it would never even occur to me to ask a young lady to raise her skirt. I mean … whoa! That just feels entirely inappropriate to me. I can’t imagine any male of any faculty, high school or otherwise, thinking that’s OK.</p>

<p>It’s just a bit boggling to me.</p>

<p>I don’t think it matters one bit if the girls were asked to raise skirts one inch, or over their heads or even strip altogether. The distinction is lost on me. It’s the whole “control freak” behavior that’s so unfathomable.</p>

<p>Soozievt is right on one important point - what people “hear” v. what they are required to read = two different things, so, by all means send a very strong letter with specific action steps and a firm deadline. Certified mail.</p>

<p>Wowie. I’m going to be following this one. Can’t wait to see how the Vice Principal responds.</p>

<p>IMO: Inappropriate. Controlling. Passive-aggressive. It sure would be nice to have this fellow apologize publicly to the girls. Don’t you think you should suggest that to the VP?</p>

<p>I agree with Berurah that it doesn’t rise to the level of true sexual harrassment. However, the petty person who lives inside me would nevertheless hint strongly at this as a possibility. If this is suggested, he’ll sure never do THAT again. (Instead, he’ll just do something else.)</p>

<p>I’m reminded of high school coaches (few and far between, thank goodness) who yell at the kids, make them run sprints, make them do push-ups, because they won the game but NOT BY ENOUGH POINTS. (This was our lacrosse coach for three years, who was finally fired.)</p>

<p>I agree with Soozie that besides taling to the principal or vice-principal, this whole thing needs to be put in writing. You can send the message through em-mail and scan in the photos for good measure. But it is important to have something down so that it does not let any one off the hook.</p>

<p>I’m sure the teacher did not have sexual harassment on his mind, but this can be construed as such–like a guy putting up pin-up calendars in a mixed work environment. We told one colleague off one year; he had not realized it was making us uncomfortable.</p>

<p>The ONLY things I can think of as a rationale for the pantyhose requirement are 1) if the girls’ floor length black skirts have any kind of slit in them (doesn’t seem to be the case from your description) or 2) if trouser socks have been known in the past to bunch up around the ankles. </p>

<p>Notwithstanding, if there’s nothing in writing and the kids were never told of this requirement, then the guy was overstepping in a major way on all counts. I might be wrong, but it doesn’t sound like sexual harrassment to me so much as stupidity. If you told me that the skirt had to be lifted up all the way above the knee I might change my opinion there.</p>

<p>I sure hope this gets resolved. In my opinion, what matters is what shows. If the dress is full length then knee high whatevers would be fine. No one should be seeing the girls’ legs above that part anyway! I will say…we have terrific music teachers around here…but sometimes they communicate with the kids and not the parents. I actually took issue with our HS instrumental teacher (who I thought was terrific, btw) because he assumed the kids would give the info to their parents (they didn’t) and that they were responsible (sometimes they weren’t). Still…I feel students should be given ample warning about things like dress code, how it will affect their grades ,etc. This isn’t something that should be done the night of an event at all. Let us know how this all turns out.</p>

<p>Maybe you could clarify - you said your d played ‘at festival’. Are the rules set by the festival and not your local school?</p>

<p>This is wrong and bizarre and odd on so many levels. I can’t even comprehend why trouser socks are a problem in the first place. We have a dress code for our orchestra (boys are in tuxes, girls in black dresses) but there is huge variability with shoes, stockings, etc. I cannot imagine micromanaging that way. </p>

<p>It;s just weird, and you are right to be upset, Binx. I would be too, and would absolutely contact some of the powers that be, since I think asking girls to lift their skirts is inappropriate.</p>

<p>I agree with the posters who suggested documenting everything and copying everybody. I’d make sure the principal and superintendent were on the list. There are two issues – being punished for info that seems not to have been disseminated and then asking girls to lift their skirts.</p>

<p>I DO think this is sexual harrassment, whether or not that was the intent. It wouldn’t be tolerated in a business setting, so why should it be tolerated at school? It’s even worse because the girls are probably under age. I wouldn’t sue anyone, but I’d want something from the administration saying that the issue is addressed through some kind of written policy or sexual harrassment training.</p>

<p>If the pantyhose rule had been promulgated in advance, and if there had been no demand to raise skirts to check up on compliance, I’d agree that the organizers had the right to require that level of dress conformity…</p>

<p>BUT…I think it would still be a very foolish rule. I’ve sung in classical choirs my whole life, and I now judge vocal competitions. Directors always explain that they require women to be completely shrouded in black because it directs the audience’s focus away from clothing and onto the music. The audience, this argument goes, should perceive a whole, not a bunch of individuals. But if this were so, the men wouldn’t wear tuxedos, which are extremely high-contrast, attention-grabbing clothes that men generally wear at times when they want to be noticed for looking good (see: Academy Awards). The fact is, male musicians wear tuxedos because they are traditional, and because they bring a sense of formality and dignity to the proceedings. If I had my way, women would wear the equivalent – black evening gowns – and there wouldn’t be all this nonsense about covering their arms to the wrist, etc. If directors really care about directing attention away from individuals, they should go all the way and drape the men in floor-length black burqas, too. A handsome young bass in a well-cut tux is a lot more distracting to me than some sparkly diamond earrings.</p>

<p>(Can you tell I hate those nasty black smocks?)</p>

<p>"My S auditioned for the NY Phil last fall. This teacher’s comment to me when he heard was, “That’s the nice thing about the NY Phil - They let anybody audition.” </p>

<p>This comment totally sums up where this guy’s head is at. Imagine, on this forum, if someone responded the same way to a parent’s happiness over their child getting into a college! It’s preposterous. No one says such a thing, even if they think it, unless they WANT to make a point. Passive aggressive passive aggressive passive aggressive. He hasn’t reached a sufficient point in his own self esteem to be happy for others. How pathetic. IMO, he shouldn’t be teaching. He’s dangerous. Think about it this way- in some ways, teachers are like therapists. They hold these kid’s self worth in the palm of their hands. They shouldn’t be teaching if they are trying to undermine their own pupil’s self esteem. I’d have told the principal about that comment when it happened. It’s very telling.</p>