<p>Teachers should not be able to dictate what you wear UNDER your clothing, if it doesn’t show. Under a long skirt, knee hi’s or socks are appropriate undergarments, as long as “skin” doesn’t show. I think this guy gets some kind of satisfaction out of knowing what the girls are wearing under their dresses. He was flamed when your daughter and the others didn’t cooperate.</p>
<p>The choir at D’s h.s. wears black, sleeveless evening gowns with a white drape of fabric below the neck. It is lovely and feminine. Director is a total control freak/egomaniac. The orchestra is just told to dress head to toe in black, with plenty of flexibility in terms of pants/skirts/footwear. The only other requirement is that the outfit must be dressy. Director is wonderful. fun, & flexible.</p>
<p>Our town h.s. choirs have long taffeta skirts and short-sleved velvet fitted tops with rhinestone buttons for sparkle. The boys wear tux pants & tux vests with classic pleated shirts & bow ties. Madrigals dress in full mediaeval regalia, including a court jester. Director is a crazy control freak, but has a sense of humor. He is one of the most gifted educators I’ve ever seen & parents would march over a cliff for him. These singing groups perform in Carnegie Hall & tour Europe every year. Sometimes a control freak can be very effective & very endearing.</p>
<p>Stickershock, there’s a different between a “control freak” and someone who is very exacting in his expectations – and communicates them beforehand. The director you describe is not a real control freak. You yourself used the words “fun and flexible” to describe him.</p>
<p>The word for this guy Binx has described is “bully.”</p>
<p>No, I think SS was describing two different directors. One for the choir and one for the orchestra.</p>
<p>It is true that orchestra/band/choir directors are often a bit anal about uniforms. My concern in this case is the teacher. It is beyond inappropriate that the teacher made the girls lift their dresses (any lifting over the ankles was completely uncalled for). While I wouldn’t call for his firing, I think you are absolutely correct to complain! He needs to understand exactly why his actions were unacceptable. </p>
<p>BTW, my orchestra teacher was an “inappropriate toucher.” In my day, we just said “Yuck” to each other and never told anyone. It went on for years before someone finally took him to court. He was never convicted, but he had to stop teaching. It may truly have been innocent, as he says, but it didn’t feel that way to the girls who were touched. I am not saying that your teacher is doing anything of that sort. However, it really IS important to deal with the problem head-on and make sure it stops. That should be the goal.</p>
<p>As for the grade being lowered, I have heard of grades being lowered by temperamental arts teachers for a variety of silly reasons. Hopefully, you can help keep it from happening in this case. It seems unfair.</p>
<p>Right marite. A male control freak choir director and a female flexible orchestra director. They are night and day personalities.</p>
<p>The third person I wrote about is also a control freak. He at least admits to being a nut. In fact, I was laughing because he was so involved in details at the madrigal feast fundraiser that I heard him on his cell phone arranging to have nuts delivered. Nuts for a nut. He was counting the number of nutcrackers to see if there were enough for each table. Even a detail that small calls for his involvement – it’s a compulsion. He can be a real “nut cracker” himself, but there is enough humor and genuine love for the kids that it is endearing & eccentric. If the other teachers at our public h.s. were half as strong as he, I’d have sent D there.</p>
<p>Can’t wait till Monday to hear what the VP has to say.</p>
<p>
I’d raise a ruckus over this. It’s absolutely uncalled for. Good luck with your VP. Here’s what another public HS VP did - </p>
<p>There was an incident in one of the school districts around here a few years ago where a HS assistant principal decided on her own to have the girls show her their underwear upon entrance to a school dance. The employee stated that it was to make sure they weren’t wearing thong underwear and to make sure they were wearing bras. This was in front of males and other high schoolers as well.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20020430--n57037.html[/url]”>http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/northcounty/20020430--n57037.html</a></p>
<p>Our D’s HS wind orchestra director was a control freak or so we thought until I read the original post, but he had a sense of humor, I.e. laughed at himself, and would never ask to see more than what the audience might see.</p>
<p>A misunderstanding from the other side: Our other D’s HS choir director took the kids to New York to sing. In giving the travel safety instructions he stated that they were not to wear thongs in the airport. One of the girls raised her hand and asked why did he care what kind of underwear they wore.</p>
<p>Thanks for the laugh, mardad. Bet that poor girl is having some trouble living that down.</p>
<p>I just saw a facebook entry from another girl affected by this. Someone else wrote a comment indicating that the orchestra he led last night (different class - our school has 5 orchestras) did NOT receive inspection. He just announced to the class that he “better not see any white socks.” So I am thinking the VP may have had a discussion with him beforehand.</p>
<p>re: NY Phil comment. ewwwwwww. It is my impression that they have open auditions only in the sense that you may send in your resume for consideration rather than just by invitation. I think you still need a certain level of prior instruction to be considered, plus with lower level kids they ask for a tape don’t they?
Very pitiful guy to need to say that to a high school student.</p>
<p>Actually, OldinJersey, my S isn’t in HS anymore - he is a Junior at Juilliard (and a classmate of your kid’s, I believe?) My S had told his former band director about the audition, who had then told the orchestra director, who then made the comment to me. S took the audition because he had determined to take as many auditions as he could his junior year, in preparation for next year’s job/grad school process. Although he didn’t advance past the first round (and didn’t expect to), he was thrilled to receive several votes. “Mom, several people from the NY Phil thought I was good enough to go on!” (Only a handful did advance, I think.) He did have to send in a resume, but no tape. It was a great experience for him in every way. I was so stunned at the orchestra director’s comment, I don’t believe I even responded.</p>
<p>Absolutely inappropriate if the teachers asked the skirts to be pulled up any higher than a couple of inches. Like others I can understandif the socks are a different color and can be seen from the audience, otherwise who cares - -not to mention that if they wanted a specific color it was their responsibility to stipulate it - -do they tell the girls what color hose to wear? I would let someone know of just forward this series of posts to the administrators - -wow, we think we take steps forward and then this -</p>
<p>Your son is the french horn? I mix things up lately- yes DD1 is a senior doing the grad school/job rounds. Northwestern done, J-yard and MSM to go, then senior recital and graduation. What’s your boy got lined up for the summer? DD1 is back to Switzerland, and I am so glad she doesn’t have to worry about summer program auditions now on top of the grad schools. </p>
<p>I think there are some crazed, obsessive, love-to-win music teachers and they can be very tough. Our h.s. band teacher is that way. I think he is a fine t-bone player, but his heart is in teaching music. He’s not there because he couldn’t get a classical gig, he’s there because this is what he wanted to do and does a great job because of that. Too many music majors who have used teaching as a fall-back shouldn’t be teaching.</p>
<p>Yes, french horn. My S auditioned for Switzerland and is waiting to hear (felt he played well, but is up against professionals - hoping to at least be on the wait list for the November tour). Also has a 10-day gig in Korea (no pay, but all expenses paid). Several other summer program auditions - won’t hear anything till next month. Worst case, he stays in NYC and takes gigs. We’re already paying for the apt anyway. Haven’t stressed too much over him, because I’ve been busy stressing over D’s college applications. :)</p>
<p>binx- PM or post when he hears about Switzerland. It’s a great experience. DD had a great time visiting Korea with the orchestra. J. H. is there and also I think another j-yard boy on trombone? your ds will know. They showed the kids a good time the night they got to visit.
My nerves are totally blown away by the wait for FA news. I am worried about the costs, RU off the record said no need aid $ wth an EFC over 4k. so no idea what to do. At least it is taking my mind off DD1 and her auditions.</p>
<p>OP - silly question but as a cello mom I wondered if they are letting the cellists wear pants. I *think dd1 said Juilliard said they could if they were so wide it looked like a skirt when you stood up. Might be the Swiss tour group DD1 is also involved in though. In both cases there were girls who felt a youthful slut look adds to the fun of classical music.</p>
<p>OldinJersey, your comment about the band director WANTING to be a band director struck home with me. My nephew really wants to be a high school band teacher, and I think he’d be a great one. My mother-in-law, bless her heart, just can’t seem to understand why he wants to do that. She keeps talking about how he needs to go into the military & be in a service band, or how he can be in a professional orchestra. Fortunately, he is secure with his decision & is off to college in the fall with his eye on the prize. I will make sure I warn him never to make the girls hike their skirts!!</p>
<p>Binx, I’m astounded by the behavior of the director and will be looking for your update.</p>
<p>When my daughter was in HS, the vocal and instrumental departments had very strict performance dress codes, right down to the acceptable sort of footwear (socks and shoes). The big difference[s] from your situation was that it was all clearly spelled out in the student contract signed at the beginning of the school year. In addition, there were always “inspections” several days prior to performances, when students brought in all their performance apparel for final approval. In instances where the cost of choir outfits or something like shoes might cause a hardship for a family (this was a public performing arts high school with a very high number of free/subsidized lunch students), each department had established a uniform fund for needy students. If a student claimed they couldn’t afford something, they were provided funds, no questions asked, with the only requirement being that they “pay back” the fund by serving as ticket takers, ushers, or through some sort of classroom help. Interestingly, most students that have used the fund provide the service AND find a way to pay back the fund over time. In addition, choir seniors are always asked to consider donating back their used uniforms; when my daughter graduated, she donated a pair of character shoes as well as one of her complete uniforms. It’s a matter of pride for the kids to be in uniform and to donate back, but I think that’s a result of the very strong cooperative/collaborative ethic of both departments…a philosophy the director of your daughter’s orchestra would probably find unfathomable.</p>
<p>Binx - My daughters both have Festival in a few weeks and I have this feeling that I’m going to be concentrating more on looking at their ankles than on listening to their music!</p>
<p>But in all seriousness, forget the impact on the grades, this was an inappropriate request by a person in authority over teenage kids. While I agree that it’s not at the level of precipitating a lawsuit, it certainly needs to be taken very seriously by the school administration and at a minimum warrants some sort of formal apology to both the students and their parents.</p>
<p>Tough getting on here today! I wanted to give an update, such as it is.</p>
<p>VP was apparently off campus most of today. When he did call, it was to reassure me that he talked to the teacher who told him it was part of the dress code. End of story.</p>
<p>I told him to go back and ask to see the dress code in writing. When he called back the second time, he said that the teacher was very and genuinely surprised to see that it was NOT in the dress code, and plans to rectify that on the website soon. But he claims he told the class over and over.</p>
<p>The VP also told me that the students affected received 90s for their performance grade, rather than 100s.</p>
<p>My arguments (and there were many!) were:</p>
<ol>
<li> Teachers teach 5 classes - is it possible that they only THOUGHT they told the class.</li>
<li> If they DID tell the class, why do you suppose so many (half the girls) missed it?</li>
<li> Why are they allowed to impulsively change a dress code after requiring parents to sign off on it? (Even if they change it on the website, shouldn’t they have to notify us?) Does this mean I don’t have to follow any of the other papers I was required to sign for the school at the beginning of the year?</li>
<li> The VP told me the teachers claim they just “asked to see ankles” - which is not what the girls have told me. The VP is obviously inclined to believe/protect the teachers. But I did tell him I did not believe it was ever sexual in nature, and that if I did believe that, I would have contacted the police, not the school. However, I do believe that it was wrong, inappropriate, and creepy.<br></li>
<li> The VP told me that he learned that up to 10 points can be taken off for appearance at these festivals. I pointed out that, despite 10 girls wearing socks, they still got a perfect score. The fact that he had to ask the girls to move their dresses at all means that it was not visible. So that argument doesn’t wash. I also told him I would be sending him a photograph of the performance, and I would like him to identify which girls are wearing pantyhose.</li>
<li> I have asked him how high the directors are allowed to look to determine if it’s pantyhose, thigh-highs, knee highs, or what.</li>
<li> The directors told him that they inspected the other groups as well; yet a girl who attended a second performance says he did NOT do it there. Why the discrepancy? I think there’s some butt-covering going on, and I don’t think it is with pantyhose.</li>
</ol>
<p>So far, I’ve not been successful in getting grade points adjusted, or getting any admission of anything improper. My only “point” (for those keeping score) has been the lack of written dress code.</p>
<p>The VP, in general, laughed a lot when I talked with him, which kept him from having to come up with answers, and treating it all like a funny situation. I did not back down. Although I didn’t get mad, I did get loud. However, he assured me he will continue to investigate, and will get back to me tomorrow. Meanwhile, I’m working on my letter, which I will send to him and the principal.</p>