<p>Thanks for the update. The VP is covering up and is not treating the incident seriously. There are so many wrong things here that it does need to be treated with utmost seriousness. The teacher and the school could land themselves in court if some parents were so minded.</p>
<p>Do write the letter outlining the points you made in your post. When he reads it, especially knowing that it has been sent to several other recipients, maybe he will stop laughing and do something about it.</p>
<p>binx, that just makes me furious. I was in orchestra in high school and also preformed in All State Orchestra and Mid Atlantic Orchestra. Never did anyone check my ankles or care what I wore under my dress. My orchestra director did once laughingly tell me not to have jeans on under my gown (I was also the ultimate tomboy). I think the response from the VP makes me the maddest, because it’s obvious that he’s covering for the director…GRRRRR</p>
<p>Binx, good work. Keep it up. Sounds like you handled this very well.</p>
<p>I wonder why the VP laughed a lot. You might ask him if he finds this funny. And tell him that you do not, nor does your daughter.</p>
<p>Regarding #5 – if “up to 10 points” can be taken off for appearance, and they took 10 points off for the alleged problem with the socks/pantyhose, what would they do if someone showed up in jeans? Or hot pants? Apparently 10 points is all they’ll take off. There doesn’t seem to be any “penalty to fit the crime” here.</p>
<p>Regarding #4 – if the teacher just asked to see the ankles, he never would have known who was in socks and who in pantyhose. So no one would have had ANY points taken off. So why did he take off points?? </p>
<p>I went to a fabulous concert yesterday. I’m still transported. I have to report, though, that at the beginning, I looked at all the performers’ ankles to see what kind of socks/knee socks/hose they were wearing. It had never happened before. This thread is a bad influence. :)</p>
<p>You should write the letter summarizing your areas of concern and the VPs response. Then copy the Principal and Superintendent of schools. I’m sure you can do it in the clear, objective way you’ve summarized your conversation here on CC.</p>
<p>Here’s how I look at it. Everyone can make a mistake – not ensuring the dress code was up to date, for example – but mistakes should be rectified. I don’t consider asking the girls to lift their skirts as a mistake, but it had better not happen again! I think you began addressing the issue at the appropriate level (you never want to start at the top with these things) but if you aren’t satisfied with the response, you are perfectly justified in escalating it to the next level. </p>
<p>If you have a problem with anything else in life, don’t you ask to speak to the supervisor if you don’t feel the person you are dealing with is handling it appropriately? It’s the same thing here. Good luck!!!</p>
<p>VeryHappy - good point regarding #4 - I’m going to add that to my letter.</p>
<p>It’s confusing re: #5. There are two grading issues at hand. The first is from the judges of the festival. They are allowed to take off up to 10 points based on “Appearance” (This is what the VP told me, but didn’t tell me out of how many points.) Anyway, the judges took off none - they got a perfect score for appearance. So the argument about socks affecting appearance is moot in my opinion.</p>
<p>The second part of the grading is the grades the directors of the orchestra give the individual students. That is where students lost 10 points off their own performance grade - the one that affects their class grade on their report card. I haven’t seen a rubric, but I have to assume there would be points for dress code violations, points for forgetting music, points for stage behavior, etc. As one of the girls has pointed out, nobody ever gets docked for playing out of tune. </p>
<p>By the way, I want to thank everybody who has responded so far (or in the future.) You are really helping me organize my thoughts, and making very many good points. It is a lot easier to approach them with your assurances that I’m not out of my mind.</p>
<p>My d came home today saying that everyone she’s talked to thinks it’s ridiculous. She showed me a letter another student has written. (An excellent letter.) The student was going to get it checked by a language arts teacher first, and hand it to the teachers tomorrow. I think it’s a great idea to let another teacher see it - maybe the other teacher will feel compelled to report it? Otherwise, I think the directors would just toss it. And I think the girl (a junior) is being very brave in confronting the teachers.</p>
<p>I think everyones grade should be adjusted up if points were taken off for attire. </p>
<p>As well, the VP is hoping you will drop it by not taking you seriosully. Wonder if a dad had called up and complained if the VP would have laughed it off.</p>
<p>My Ds have told me teachers have said, yes, I did tell you and they never did mention something.</p>
<p>You should CC the letter to a third party- the people in charge of the concert, the higher ups…seeing a CC gets people to pay attention</p>
<p>So let that girl know she should CC the letter to a the teacher’s boss, or anybody so they can’t just brush it under the rug</p>
<p>It might be a good idea to follow up and put everything you said in writing and ask for a written response, just for the record, so to speak, or you could say you just wanted to summarize your opinions and clarify what you were told in the meeting. Good idea to have some sort of written response from the school, just in case you want to pursue it further. Also, I feel that it is okay to make a few individuals think about what they are doing in a situation like this, and if it makes them a little uncomfortable, so be it. </p>
<p>I would insist on an answer explaining why points are taken off for appearance when no one could tell the difference between the sock wearing girls and the pantyhose wearing girls without looking under the skirts. If one can’t tell the diffenence than why does it matter? It would appear that points are not being docked for appearance but maybe for something else? I might also insist that anything that is so important to the uniform that it could cost points be included in a written description of the uniform so that parents could refer to it. It is misleading to have a written description that is inaccurate. When something has been communicated in written and verbal form, usually one refers back to the written form if in doubt as to requirements because then one is not relying on memory. So easy to misunderstand something verbal.</p>
<p>I would also point out that it is not a good idea for male teachers to ask students to lift up their clothing to any degree – it simply is too easy to misinterpret such a request. It is for the protection of the teachers as well as the students to insist that this not happen.</p>
<p>Just keep asking the same question, in the same words, over and over again. If he laughs, just ask the same question again, in the same words.</p>
<p>He will eventually get the point that you are not laughing. His continuing to laugh means he is laughing at you. Once he realizes how seriously you are taking this, he will stop.</p>
<p>At some point you also may want to insinuate the other stories about this teacher – his comment regarding the NY Phil audition, for example.</p>
<p>I agree…put it all in writing. Your ending can be “I look forward to meeting with you to discuss this letter and a response to my concerns at your earliest convenience.” This way, the letter will not be overlooked…clearly you are looking for them to RESPOND…not just read.</p>
<p>I would also try to get other students or parents to corroborate your daughter’s version of the events. How high up they were asked to hitch their dresses, what they were or were not told to wear…</p>
<p>Since only binx, and not us, heard the VP laughing… she is the only one who can interpret (maybe) why. I think it could be nervousness on his part, as much as it might be trying to diminish the issue. In either case, binx should stick to her guns, as she plans. If it is nervous laughter, that’s just another sign that there is an issue here.</p>
<p>VeryHappy’s comment re point #4 is <em>very</em> telling. No way could the teacher have created this whole problem if he only looked up to ankle level. And if he is saying he only looked to ankle level, it’s because he realizes that’s the most he should have done. If anything.</p>
<p>I do love a good controversy, and I do love to show “the man” that he’s wrong. I love to humiliate people who have acted inappropriately because they think they own or are allowed to boss the world.</p>
<p>Whoa girl, calm down. I do tend to get a bit carried away. Must be a nasty experience in my own past . . . .</p>
<p>BTW, I made a really good point with #5 as well.</p>
<p>As you can see, I am a major player in your fan club, VH :). But I think the #5 thing works this way - the VP is saying that the judges at the competition can take up to 10 points off of the school’s score if the overall appearance of the orchestra is lacking. What the teacher did is take 10 points off individual students’ grades - treating this event as one of several graded elements in the class (such as one might grade a test, an essay). So his 10 points are a different thing from the judges’ 10 points.</p>
<p>binx, first I want to tell you how impressed I am that you have kept a rational, clear head about this with that VP. My blood was boiling reading your description of his responses and reaction to you (LAUGHING??? Is he kidding??? I truly question his intelligence, not to recognize how this incident could be such a black eye on the teacher, administration, etc.) Honestly, my Irish temper would have given that man a piece of my mind, in spades. You kept so cool, which was the better response in that meeting.</p>
<p>I concur with others that putting it all in detail in writing to him, the teacher, the principal, and the superintendent is the next step. Rectifying the grades, and a clear apology in front of the entire orchestra is the minimum expectation for rectifying this. Without an immediate satisfactory response, the school board should be notified, and a letter from a lawyer would not be too extreme.</p>
<p>Keep us posted- you’re doing great for your dd, and the whole current and future orchestras!</p>
<p>I agree about the apology not going to happen - At least not if requested. Perhaps if it’s their idea.</p>
<p>The girl I mentioned above called me this evening. She wanted my help with her letter - didn’t know I’d already contacted the school - I hadn’t told anyone, and told d not to tell, because I wanted people’s responses to be their own, thinking that it would be more powerful if people complained individually. </p>
<p>She was trying to stay objective, but explained that she had been the first one to be examined, and felt embarassed and humiliated. She said she’d been looking forward to festival, and had worked very hard (she’s very talented), and that ruined it for her. I encouraged her to explain her feelings in her letter - no one can deny you your own feelings. I also advised her NOT to ask for an apology. If she says she was made to feel bad, a normal human being is going to spontaneously offer an apology. If she requests one, they’ll put their backs up. But if she doesn’t get the response she’s asking for (grade adjustment) then she will take it up the next level. I suggested that at that point, she can say she didn’t even get an apology.</p>
<p>I was glad to hear from this girl, because I hadn’t really talked with anyone affected, except via my d.</p>
<p>It is so sad that the Festival was ruined for a talented and hard-working musician, and that this is what she will remember when she looks back on it, instead of a wonderful musical experience.</p>