<p>Binx, I dont have anything to add to all the wonderful suggestions above but I did want to offer my support to you, your daughter and her orchestra mates.</p>
<p>I just found this thread. </p>
<p>I am horrified. </p>
<p>I am not an orchestera mom – far from it – but it’s so incredibly inappropriate for a male teacher to inspect what girls (or boys for that matter) are wearing under their clothes (when we are not talking about athletic safety equipment such as weenie protectors). </p>
<p>If teachers are being fired for viewing inappropriate photos on their school computers – asking young women to displace their clothing so that a teacher can rule on their undergarments is inexcusable. </p>
<p>IMO … off with their heads!</p>
<p>Ahm. My advice, for better or worse is to deemphasize … the … grade … issue. We’re talking about 10 points here. Unfair? You bet. But I seriously doubt this is the hook you need.</p>
<p>I think the hook here is telling the girls to hike up their skirts. It is inconceivable (Wallace Shawn, help me out here) that ANY male in this day and age could even THINK about asking such a thing. Seriously, I’m male. I teach. I don’t even let my EYES wander where they (sometimes) really want to go. I have to tell you, that skrt lifting thing creeps me out, and I think it’s THAT part that will grab attention.</p>
<p>Obviously, this young lady who is writing a letter felt extremely, sexually uncomfortable with the situation. I have to tell you, if it were my daughter, I’d be very, very upset.</p>
<p>Binx, I know my style is probably very different from yours, but if I had talked to the VP, I would have very calmly, but very firmly, let the word “pervert” drop. Perhaps the context would have been something like, “Mr. XX, I hope you understand that I simply must satisfy myself on this issue. At this point, i’m inclined to believe that there is a substantial possibility that Dr. XX is a pervert. If I don’t receive satisfactory evidence from you on this point within XX days, I’m afraid that I will have to act in the best interests of my daughter and other young ladies in Dr. XX’s class. Your laughter leads me to believe that you do not take this matter seriously, and I’m afraid that, as a responsible father, I must.”</p>
<p>Some may think I’m going over the top, but I don’t think so. There was a time in this country when asking a young lady to lift her skirt to check her bloomers or something might have been innocent. But no male teacher these days can be oblivious to the current climate. If he told them to lift their skirts, he must have really wanted to see.</p>
<p>Yuck.</p>
<p>Binx,
It has been some time since I’ve posted as I’m often working long hours, but this issue provoked me. Some years back a girl in my Ds fourth grade class refused to accept an award from the principal. When asked why she stated that she was really a coward and didn’t deserve any award. When the psycologist interviewed her she revealed that the female teacher was regularly dumping the contents of boy’s desks onto the floor and instructing them to crawl around and clean up the mess. She felt that since she didn’t say or do anything to help her classmates out of fear the same would happen to her, that she was a coward. This reminded me that all students in that room, whether subject to inspection or not, were impacted in some way.
The young women involved may also be feeling some sense of disappointment that they complied and did not resist. If the inspection was ordered in the presence of the male students, was that meant to devalue and demean the female members of the group? What does this say to those young men about male dominance or the objectification of women? If they did not rise to the defense of their classmates, what are they thinking about themselves? Perhaps the group should discuss the issue together with the school counselors. To not address the issue or not see it properly resolved may send more of a message than we can even realize.
It should be clear that you will not debate with a tape measure in hand.
Up above the ankle, calf or kneecap, doesn’t matter. It goes to the judgement of an adult who has been given authority over children by a school district. I hope you can bring this to the attention of the school board members and take it outside of the school building, for your daughter and all our daughters. Give her a big hug. Then show her what this teacher’s worst nightmare looks like.</p>
<p>Mama’s post is well-reasoned and full of insight. I too was an orchestra parent with a psycho director. </p>
<p>The vice-principal wants to brush this aside with laughter and a consoling phone call or two. I believe you need to put this all in writing: calm, factual letters to the teacher, vice-principal, principal, superintendent, and personnel director. The girl who is writing a letter could also follow this path. </p>
<p>This incident should be documented by personnel and put in the teacher’s personnel records.</p>
<p>I agree with Tarhunt that the grade issue should be de-emphasized. The focus should remain on the unacceptable request that the girls lift their skirts. I don’t think that I would use the word pervert. I would, however, suggest that such as request can easily be construed as something else that is actionable and it is in the interest of the school to stop such actions point blank.</p>
<p>I would use words like, “raises a red flag.” You’re not actually accusing anyone of bad intentions, but sometimes the mere appearance of impropriety is enough.</p>
<p>Based on your comments so far, we’ve decided to have my H write a letter to a different administrator than the one I am currently dealing with. (Probably the principal, who is female.) It can be done with the attitude “things aren’t moving fast enough for me.” I think we will concentrate on both points, because the adjustment of the grades is the only concrete proof we will get that they have taken any action at all. They will certainly not tell us if teachers are disciplined in any way. I think our MO will be a) impropriety of checking (and checking for something not even required by written dress code - which adds another level to it) and b) therefore, any resulting effects of checking should be nullified.</p>
<p>I don’t have any problem with using the word “pervert.” It’s one of those hot-button words that escalates the discussion. And at this point, with the vice principal laughing off the incident, I would <em>want</em> this discussion escalated.</p>
<p>p.s. you don’t have to <em>call</em> the teacher a pervert – simply saying the behavior raises the question should do it.</p>
<p>binx, I do believe this orchestra director has caught himself in a lie. Confirm with your d and her friends that he did in fact require the girls to lift their skirts up high enough to see where the socks ended. Then write a letter to the principal and cc it to his supervisor. Summarize the incident, your first discussion with the principal, and then tell him you don’t feel this incident is being given proper attention. Leave out the part about grades, evaluations, photographs, etc. Focus in on the examination of girls undergarments, as well as the subsequent lie to cover up for it.</p>
<p>I’d call the principal, then follow up with a formal letter to her. don’t want any mail to get lost in the school.
No clue why the idiot laughed - none of them good - there might be an element of terror in dealing with the issue.
I would hesitate to use such a loaded word as pervert about the two teachers. Someone could decide that life on Easy Street will appear if they can produce a child traumatized by a pervert. Let this label get attached and it could haunt them for the rest of their lives.
In fact I’d make clear to the principal that you want the behavior addressed, the kids appologized to, and whatever amends you think needed, but that you do not want them removed from work, stigmatized etc.
Also that your concern about the behavior is so strong that you feel you are working to resolve this for upcoming students as well as your daughter. (you will not go away at graduation)</p>
<p>Although you may not ever get an apology, it is important for the teacher to revisit the incident. He may say that guidelines will be revised and sent to families, or some such thing. But honestly, the grade is the least important issue here, and it diverts attention away from the main concern which is inapppropriate behavior that could be interpreted as the acts of a “pervert.” To insist on a grade change might leave room for the teacher and vice-principal to characterize students and their families as grade-grubbers. So while the letter should request that grades should be changed, this should not be the most important demand.
As well, the more students lodge a formal complaint, the less able the adminsitration will be to laugh it off. </p>
<p>This reminds me of a very minor incident that occured when S was in 7th grade. The music teacher wanted the kids to perform a skit about the history of American music. The kids loathed the script because it made them sound, in S’s words “like morons.” S complained nearly every day about it, saying that the music teacher refused to listen to their complaints. After hearing this for the umpteenth time, I told him to write a letter. He did, and showed it to classmates. By the time he gave it to the teacher, 2/3 of the class had signed it. The kids who signed the letter were exempted from performing the kids, leaving the 1/3 who had not green with envy.
The letter was computer-generated. At the end of the year, the teacher marked S down for poor hand-writing.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wonderfully put, Mama. Absolutely brilliant.</p>
<p>Binx, you should use some of these words in this letter (the letter that’s getting longer and longer and sent to more and more people . . . ).</p>
<p>I don’t think the letter should be very long. The shorter and sharper it is, the more forcefully the main points will come across. If necessary, append copies of dress code and other students’ comments, photos, whatever. But the main point needs to be stated as clearly as possible. The teacher engaged in inappropriate, unacceptable behavior.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Believe it or not, I’m having trouble confirming this. The teacher knelt down in front of each girl, and my d wasn’t paying attention to what was going on. When he got to d’s stand partner, it was the first clue my d had that anything unusual was happening - when she heard him say something about “socks.” I’ve only spoken to my d and one other. The other was the very first girl inspected. Both are using different phrases than the teacher used, but my impression is that the girls raised their dresses higher than their ankles, unclear about what the teacher wanted, and not knowing that socks were “wrong.” Neither girl remembers the phrase, “let me see your ankles” - but they don’t remember exact words. My d’s recollection immediately after the incident was that he said, “Let me see your socks.” The memory gets fuzzy in the re-telling.</p>
<p>I hesitate to push the girls for too many details, because I don’t want them to feel more shame or like they did something wrong. I am taking the stance that asking to see any article of clothing that is otherwise not visible is inappropriate.</p>
<p>Binx: I don’t get it. Why should the girls feel shame when it’s the teacher who’s at fault? If victims of inappropriate behavior are not going to be encouraged, nay urged, to protest such a behavior, it only enables the perpetrators. The girls should not feel shame. They should feel outrage. I also agree that demanding to see articles of clothing that are not visible is inappropriate. It does not matter whether the skirts had to be lifted to the knee or above. No one should be able to guess whether a woman is wearing knee socks or pantyhose.</p>
<p>Mama’s point is excellent. Let’s take it a bit further:</p>
<p>No clear written specific policy; what exists has been amended verbally. If it impacts the grade, it should be amended in writing, period. </p>
<p>And just how clearly was this policy defined? How about boys, and t-shirts?
Was it specified that t-shirts be worn, and if so, what about color? We all know the effects of a dark shirt through a white dress shirt. A white shirt with an image, a slogan…hmmm… could be visible from the audience. </p>
<p>Imagine a wrist, neck or hand tatoo that might appear sporadically during the physical movement of playing… just how would that be addressd by this obviously vague policy?</p>
<p>Heaven forbid, a body piercing that becomes outlined against a blouse or shirt?</p>
<p>Egads, the outline of a thong through a skirt, or worse still, the percieved illusion that maybe she’s NOT wearing underwear? Try and verify THAT one.</p>
<p>Imagine a Sikh, Orthodox Jew, or Muslem woman… could not religiously mandated clothing be a distraction of the stage presence of the performing organization?</p>
<p>binx, I think you see how far I’d address each point, in writing, one by one to the laughing VP, with copies to principal, superintendent, board of ed chair and the rest of the chain of command. I’d accept no delay in a written response, including an apology, a new, immediately rewritten dress code, and the regrading of all those poor kids subject to this capricious act.</p>
<p>In the event this didn’t work, there’s always the letter to the editor of the local paper, and a call to the local TV station. I’m sure they would love this story. </p>
<p>As someone else said, make it this guy’s worse nightmare. People like this should not be teaching. And administrators who laugh this off should laugh all the way to the unemployment line.</p>
<p>I’m concerned about causing them to feel shame for not protesting. I think, in the aftermath, they are in agreement that what the teacher did was wrong. They are kicking themselves for not recognizing it at the time.</p>
<p>I have used this as a teachable moment with my own d, to explain what is appropriate and what is not. I am sorry I hadn’t done so before. In elementary school, they were taught about “the ‘no’ feeling.” I don’t think it’s been mentioned by anyone - school or home - since.</p>
<p>crossposted with violadad: I haven’t address the laughing of the VP, because I don’t know what it meant. My gut feeling was that it was his attempt to keep the situation from escalating - if he treated it like something funny. I admit my comments to him were purposely outrageous, and at some points, legitimately deserved laughter. “If Dr. Teacher wants to wear lace panties under his tux, it’s really none of my business and I don’t want to know.” <laugh> “I’m going to send you a photograph taken at the performance, and I want you to identify to me which girls are wearing pantyhose.” <laugh></laugh></laugh></p>
<p>But he laughed excessively, I think, and sometimes it was so that he was spared needing to make an actual response, which I hope was a delaying tactic, rather than an answer in and of itself. “This was so wrong, and I think the teacher is sick!” <laugh> “Are these forms we have to sign at the beginning of the year meaningless? Can I change it whenever I want?” <laugh></laugh></laugh></p>
<p>It is possible that it may have been also an effort to come across as friendly rather than hostile. Hard to tell. He said he would investigate more, and get back to me today. So I am using today as my deadline. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, my H is under no self-imposed restrictions for deadline; he is allowed to take the outraged papa stance.</p>
<p>But they can protest after the fact. And they should. And they should be encouraged to do so. They can chalk it up to being surprised by the request and focused on playing and not wanting to cause a scene at the time. That happens to lots of people. But it does not preclude having a showdown after the performance and a clear and appropriate response by the powers-that-be. I would certainly include the superintendent and the school board in the list of CCs as well as the department head, vice-principal and principal.</p>
<p>binx- I see the laughing VP as part of the issue. While his demeanor might be for any number of perfectly valid reasons, it smells a bit fishy. Of course he doesn’t want to escalate, but I think he may have missed the extent to how deeply this scenario has bothered you, and just how far you’re willing to go to achieve the correct resolution.</p>
<p>Your concerns are justified. So is your reaction in asking an official to investigate. If he meets the deadline, and you’re satisfied, all well and good.</p>
<p>If he doesn’t satisfy you, the lack of written requests and responses could be a bit detrimental in achieving the desired results. </p>
<p>A formal written request (if you’ve done that, I missed it. Sorry.) would have eliminated any doubts on just how serious and how wrong you felt the actions were. </p>
<p>A written request documents your concerns, your requests, and a reasonable time-line for response. It also should outline the steps you might consider to
bring this matter to the most expeditious resolution possible.</p>
<p>My point is that is does require the most expeditious resolution possible.</p>
<p>The teacher’s actions were quite simply arbitrary, capricious, and potentially unethical, illegal and or immoral. It demands immediate attention. You may have not made that pointly clearly enough for “them” to see it.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>