<p>Lately there has been a lot in the news about an upcoming vote in Scotland to separate from England
What precipitated this-- what are the arguments and the pros and cons?
I’m not looking for political diatribes on history going back hundreds of years, just education on what now and why now</p>
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<p>I’m no expert, but I think it comes down to those who think Scotland would be better served to be totally independent as opposed to those who think that being part of the UK is preferable. The reasons for each side are many. Too many for me to recall. The coverage I’ve heard is that it’s not expected to pass.</p>
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<p><a href=“Scottish independence - Wikipedia”>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence</a></p>
<p><a href=“2014 Scottish independence referendum - Wikipedia”>2014 Scottish independence referendum - Wikipedia;
<p>(Edited to add second link more specific to the current referendum)</p>
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<p>Thanks for the links. Something I heard on public radio was something about Scotland continuing to use the British pound as their currency. I was puzzled by that-- why they would want to, and if the British would let them/ had any control over the matter.</p>
<p>I am glad someone posted this because I don’t understand it either. Why would Britain let Scotland vote to leave the UK? I remember in the 70s there were all sorts of bombings by various groups in Ireland wanting to separate but Britain would have none of that. </p>
<p>Ireland separated from Britain in 1922. Northern Ireland is 40% Catholic, 60% Protestant. That was the source of the conflict and violence. Scotland on the other hand is very homogeneous. </p>
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<p>This is complicated, so here’s a very short version:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Ireland. Conquered by Britain. Brutally administered with a Protestant gentry installed as land owners. Look up Cromwell in Ireland: massive pacification campaign of murder, much of it rooted in religious hate. Many rebellions, such as 1798. Giant famine when potato crops failed in 1840’s. The evidence is 100% clear that Britain did almost nothing to assist, that whatever efforts were intended as help were contradicted by the people in control in Britain and/or Ireland who either wanted to preserve local gentry or local business or who even thought depopulation would be a good thing. Killed ridiculous numbers because potatoes were the main source of calories. See migration to the US and then the Draft Riots in NYC, the now-famous “NINA” signs (no Irish need apply) in Boston, and the integration of the Irish into American life. British position became untenable in WWI and civil war broke out. Brutal repression and arming of Protestant militia. More war follows with Irish independence agreed to but not for the northern counties - for which agreement Michael Collins was murdered, etc. Great hatred between the nations very slowly ebbed, with the Irish to their shame supporting Nazi Germany because … “The Troubles” revived in the 1960’s in the north because the Catholics were significantly poorer, unable to get most jobs, lived in worse neighborhoods, etc. in a socially repressive system. Became open conflict with the massacre in 1972 in Londonderry - as in, Sunday Bloody Sunday - in which 13 men (7 teens) were shot down by the British Army. Eventually slowed down with a variety of reforms that brought Sinn Fein’s political wing into government, though groups like the “Real IRA” still pop up with killings now and then. In historical terms, Ireland suffered from being so close to the ruthless imperial power of Britain. </p></li>
<li><p>Scotland is joined to England and Wales. Managed to fight clear of the English off and on for centuries and eventually through inter-marriages became the rulers of both. That would be James I, who succeeded Elizabeth. James was James VI, King of Scotland and became James I of both while Shakespeare was writing. The disputes today come from the history, from religious differences, from different traditions in land ownership and from economics. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>As in, Scotland is much less Tory than England. Part of that is Scottish history dispossessed people but the Scots had a history of rebellion and a division between low and highland that persists in ways it just doesn’t in England. Scotland is much more Presbyterian. (And one oddity is many of the Protestants in N. Ireland trace roots to Scotland then back to Ireland in the migrations forced by calamities over the centuries.) </p>
<p>But the main drivers today are economic and social. Scotland has oil and believes it pays more to England than it receives. It has different attitudes toward Europe. And bluntly, they see themselves as Scots not English.It has always maintained separate sports leagues - as in when you see England in the World Cup realize they don’t play with the Welsh or Scottish players as Great Britain (meaning they don’t have Bale, one of the best players in the world because he’s Welsh). Scotland sees the growing dominance of the southeast, meaning London, and they feel they’re getting the short end of the stick though this is the “United Kingdom”. Given that places like Slovenia and Moldova are now countries, the Scots wonder why not us?</p>
<p>As to the details, they’re arguing over these in debates now. Scotland could peg its currency to the pound, and the British can’t stop that, but there are huge arguments over ownership of the national debt and capital stock, etc. There’s also the worry that North Sea oil tails off - which it is - and the Scottish economy has trouble surviving on its own. (BTW, some of these arguments should be read by those nuts who think a US state can just secede. As in, what do you take as debt? what do you pay for US property? what do you pay for border security that now doesn’t exist? how about tax relations? It isn’t easy.)</p>
<p>As Lergnom pointed out there’s centuries of animosity between England and Scotland and a long bloody history of English monarchs wanting to control Scotland and Scotland monarchs wanting to take over England. According to the locals we spoke to last year, Scotland will be fine economically, due in part to the North Sea gas. Many we spoke with were in favor of splitting.</p>
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<p>I’ve read an article from Atlantic wire(IIRC), that Scotland could open itself to be the next Ukraine. Russia is not too far away and if England moves it’s fleet down south, it could leave Scotland vulnerable.</p>
<p>England is not going to let that happen. They’re on the same island after all.</p>
<p>Living in London, the Scottish referendum vote is on the news constantly. I think the current projected vote is around 52% against independence. The yes votes have never led in polling - but I suppose there could be surprises. </p>
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<p>Is Scotland going to revive it’s own language if it’s a yes vote? I can’t barely understand their accent now. I assume English is not the original language. My husband’s best friend is a Welsh, I think there is a Welsh language or dialect if I recall.</p>
<p>I think the no votes will win based on the polling of undecideds. I think the yes people have done better recently making a case that pegging to the pound or shadowing it would work but they also raised - unintentionally - the hideous specter of negotiations over debt, over credit, etc. </p>
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<p>Yes, there is a Welsh language–not a dialect of English, but a Celtic language–and yes, there is Scottish Gaelic.</p>
<p>Lergnom, your description of the Potato Famine is excellent, but forget about not assisting: the British landlords continued to ship food to England throughout the famine. It seems that much of the “assistance” came in the form of paying for people to be shipped to the US en masse. I seem to recall that during the disaster, one third of the population died, one third emigrated (willingly or by force), and one third was left. The last time I looked into it, Ireland had still not recovered its population to pre-famine levels.</p>
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<p>There are some factual inaccuracies in this thread. First, re #5, Northern Ireland was about two-thirds Protestant in 1922, when the Brits carved up Ulster to make sure it was. But today, the gap between the two groups is much less than 60//40. From wikipedia’s entry on Northern Ireland:</p>
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</p>
<p>Second, re post #6, Ireland did NOT support Nazi Germany. LOTS of Irish served in the British armed services during WW2 and, doing so was not discouraged by the Irish government. But officially Ireland remained neutral. It did not enter the War against Germany, but neither did it enter the war on the side of Gernany. One of the speeches every Irish school kid learned was de Valera’s response to Churchill’s speech referring to Ireland as “a nation of cowards.” </p>
<p>I personally would not describe the Easter Rebellion of 1916 as “a Civil War.” At most, 2,500 or so people participated in it and it lasted about 4 days. BTW, the Germans DID try to help along that rebellion and one of the leaders of the Rising wanted to install a Catholic Hapsburg as King of Ireland–despite the fact that the other leaders declared a Socialist Republic. The vast majority of people did not support the rebellion. Ever seen the play “The Plough and the Stars?” It dared to tell the truth about the lack of popular support for the rising…and the audience stormed the stage to stop the performance. </p>
<p>However, the fact that the British leveled Dublin and arrested about 5,000 people for participating in the Easter Rebellion (or about twice the number who actually participated) changed attitudes toward the rebels. But changing the Easter Rebellion into the seminal event of Irish history had a lot to do with the machinations of Eamon de Valera.</p>
<p>For those not familiar with Irish history…de Valera was born in NYC, USA, the child of a Hispanic father and Irish mother. When the Easter Rebellion failed, all of the leaders except 2 were executed. One was spared because she was female and the other was de Valera, who was spared because he was an American citizen. The Brits wanted the US to enter WWI and were afraid the executing him would make that less likely. Since all of the other leaders except Countess Markiewicz (spelling?) were executed, de Valera became the leader. </p>
<p>What the Irish view as the Civil War began after the partition of Ireland in 1921/22. </p>
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<p>I haven’t been following the vote too closely, but am interested. I can’t contribute to the facts for educating anyone, but I have MHO …
- partly it is about the oil. Scotland feels it can afford to go independent
- partly it is about the history, and that is VOLUMES.</p>
<p>And partly it is about LONG years of resentment. The first time we went to Scotland (1991 ish) we were interested that Scotland had their own currency. Was supposed to be pegged to the English pound. So we didn’t change money when we went back to London. English shops and hotels would NOT take the Scotland currency. We had to find a bank that would take it and trade it. And since we didn’t have a local account that was hard. No we were NOT going to a currency exchange as we did not want a fee. That subtle attitude was present many a time and I think it would develop a chip on MY shoulder if I lived under it.
Last time we were in Scotland (very briefly) in 2012, we didn’t get any Scottish money since it was brief and very close to the border. And the fact that they call it a border outlines that it IS a different place. I know there is a border between CA and OR, but a state line doesn’t generally have the strength of a border. </p>
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<p>^Ha! We were just in Scotland a couple weeks ago and got Scottish “funny money.” I forgot to spend it all before we came back to London. Fortunately, the little Polish girl at our Starbucks had seen it before and was OK accepting it. Legally, they are supposed to accept it everywhere (but can’t give it out as change), but often you get someone (especially foreign retail workers) who don’t know. </p>
<p>I think the whole issue is driven by economics and history. The Scottish people complain that they pay taxes to “London” and then don’t get to control how to spend it. But they do have an independent Parliament and make most of their own laws, plus control an enormous portion of their taxes. Scotland, unlike the rest of the UK, has free university and free prescriptions (among other things). However, there are so many linked issues - national health care, pensions, military, etc. - that many people just want to avoid the headache. </p>
<p>Someone was telling me (and I don’t know details) that Wales had a similar referendum a few years ago and it received hardly any publicity. Of course, Wales doesn’t have the oil revenues that Scotland does, so no one seriously thinks it could stand alone. But I love the Welsh language!! My H thinks I’m crazy because I watch Welsh language soap operas, trying to learn. I had a friend from Mexico who learned English from watching soaps, so it’s worth a try!!</p>
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<p>We made friends with some people when we visited Scotland this past Spring and one of the dividing issues is that the Scottish think they will be affected differently depending on where in Scotland they live. For instance, our friend in Aberdeen said that even though most of the income from Scotland is generated from Aberdeen, the fear is that it with independence the money will just go to Edinburgh instead of London. Sort of like here in Pennsylvania where many residents think that the city of Philadelphia gets an unequal amount of state money. </p>
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<p>I’ve always found it ironic that the English invaded Scotland and subjugated them, and then the Scots went around the globe helping them do it to other peoples, starting with the Irish. (I know it is more complicated than that, but still…)</p>
<p>Am I the only Scot on cc?</p>
<p>Our unofficial poll when we were back home a few weeks ago was that 90% of our friends/family were voting no. Only the MIL was a yes. Having lived in the US for 18 years we don’t get a vote. Though 16 year olds do ( yikes)</p>
<p>Most people are tired of the politics and frustrated at the lack of "real " info. I can’t see any advantages. We already have a Scottish parliament ( if you ever get a chance go tour the building <a href=“Visits & Tours - Visit & Learn : Scottish Parliament”>http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/visitandlearn/24228.aspx</a>) , separate education, police, law. The biggest complaint is the tax revenues are controlled by London. </p>
<p>On the Scottish pound- I have NEVER had an issue with them being accepted in England. I fear that tourists are being taken advantage off. </p>
<p>Language- Only about 1% of Scots speak Gaelic. Both my girls have gaelic names, but that is about the limit of our knowledge. </p>