Please help me make a college decision [Amherst, Brown, Yale, Georgetown, all full ride, nontraditional transfer, international relations]

It occurred to me that perhaps my own experience as a nontraditional law school student might be somewhat relevant.

I went to law school after a long period in grad school (and also a year off in the middle to write terrible screen plays). When I started law school I was 30, about to turn 31, so a similar sort of age gap with most of my classmates. And in fact I did not end up socializing with most of them–honestly I was sort of amused the degree to which a lot of them almost seemed to be regressing to first-year college sort of behavior. So there was lots of partying, lots of hooking up and other relationship drama, and so on.

There were, however, a few other nontraditional students, and so we hung out together and formed study groups and such. But it was just a handful, and our idea of fun was more to go out for dim sum on a Sunday, not hit the clubs on a Wednesday. I was also married by then, and my wife visited on weekends, so frankly that was most of my social life. And I was also just really busy with doing well in school, such that my weeks were very structured, which in turn meant I could have free time with my wife during the weekends.

And as a result I had a great academic experience–I generally got very good grades, I had great interactions with my professors and largely developed a very good impression among them, got various competitive titles, summer jobs, and prizes (including a notable graduating prize the faculty voted on, and a very competitive summer position that depended on a faculty recommendation), the clerkship I wanted, the Department of Justice job I wanted . . . .

And honestly, it sort of felt unfair I was this focused, organized, mature adult competing with a bunch of distracted kids. But life is not fair, and I knew what I wanted (and didn’t want) out of a legal career by then, so I made sure I got what I wanted.

So this is probably part of why I am personally confident it would be fine going to Amherst. No, you would not likely be a big part of the social scene at Amherst, although again I think you would have some other nontraditional students there, including in your dorm if you chose to live on campus.

But regardless, my view is that for someone who wants to go on to grad programs, this is a feature and not a bug. You, like me, very likely could easily have the inside track to developing professor relationships, to doing great school work, and to generally being the sort of outstanding student who gets the grades and recommendations usually necessary for admission to top grad programs.

And conversely, when other posters suggest there will be more people like you at a Yale or Brown or whatever in terms of grad students and such–yes, and to be very blunt about it, that to me sounds like competition! Like, now instead of standing out as a very rare opportunity for a professor to have an unusually mature social and intellectual relationship with a student, you will be interacting with professors who get that opportunity all the time through their own PhD programs and such.

And I have seen that too, by the way, meaning I don’t think most of the professors in my department when I was a PhD student had much bandwidth available for undergrads. And of course some of those undergrads had ME as their professor!

OK, so obviously you are getting two very different perspectives here. And you will in fact have to choose for yourself what makes sense to you, as I doubt the posters here are going to reach any sort of consensus among ourselves.

But I just feel like having done something similar myself, and having seen the benefits I got, you should at least think carefully about why really standing out in terms of maturity among the students in your institution might not be ideal if you are looking for a great party scene, but might well be perfect if you are looking to college as a way to advance your grad school ambitions.

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It seems that you prefer Amherst based on the things you have written. Have you considered/researched if you attend Amherst for 5 semesters how having 3/8 of your college credits in asynchronous classes could impact grad school apps? Especially as contrasted with attending Yale or Brown for 4 years? I’m asking…I don’t know the answer.

The devil is in the details here. Gtown is decidedly less generous in FA offers than the other three schools for many students even though they say they meet full need… how each school defines need varies. It is also possible that Gtown will expect you to maximize your student loans, which as an independent student is $9500 year one, $10,500 2nd year, and $11,500 each of the last two years (there are aggregate caps if you have already taken out some federal student loans.) It’s something to prepare for should an acceptance come through.

Regardless Gtown is not an option quite yet. I would not call them to ask if they could make a decision early for you. I would not expect that from the Gtown admissions staff and would more expect they say enjoy Yale.

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OP, have you asked the schools in contention for contact details of other non-traditional students? Posters here are only speculating on how easy/hard it would be to connect with peers in age/maturity/life experience.

I took a quick look at the Eli Whitney Program – my S had positive interactions with classmates from that Program --, and while students in that Program cannot live within the undergrad colleges (graduate student housing in addition to off campus options are available), they are assigned to a residential college and have all the privileges associated with being a member of that college. So you can choose to interact as much or as little with the other undergrads.

As to not accepting credits, the policy seems pretty accepting. Your courses for some reason did not meet the standards set. That being said if you are attending any of these schools for “free”, the extra year spent will not be wasted. You can dive deeper in areas where you want specialization and you can go broader to test other interests or satisfy some curiosity. Take advantage of this. You have plenty of time in the “real world”.

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Ding, ding, ding.

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The “graduate quickly” folks are really ready to judge whether or not the OP’s virtual coursework is at all equivalent to the same course taught at Yale or Brown? We honestly have no idea.

If it’s something straightforward like a strategic language- then there’s an easy fix- offer to take the exam given to determine fluency. But if it’s something else- an international relations course which OP wants to use to skip Yale’s very famous “Grand Strategy” sequence- I wouldn’t be so quick to judge equivalency without knowing more.

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I wouldn’t say it has to be equivalent. But they would have 2.5 years of Amherst plus then grad school. Even if the missing 1.5 years of Brown or Yale would be somewhat more beneficial than their online education, that marginal benefit would have to be weighed against the rather large marginal opportunity cost of an additional 1.5 years in school before actually getting started on their working career.

I don’t think there is necessarily one right answer to this, but I think one of the reasonable answers is it could be worth it at Georgetown due to all the concurrent local experience opportunities in DC for a person with the OP’s interests, but not so worth it in New Haven or Providence. But that is up to them to ultimately decide.

As I understand this situation, Brown University will allow OP at least up to two semesters to decide whether or not he would like to receive credit for his prior coursework. May not be a guarantee, but the wording seems friendly. (“Students may seek transfer credits and advance their semester standing later.”)

Additionally, prior coursework may satisfy distribution requirements even though OP is not given advanced standing. This would allow OP to focus on other areas of interest or make it easier to double major.

An argument for Amherst College would be that OP could apply to and, possibly, attend a master’s degree program a year earlier.

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Taking the credits for Intro to psych, General biology, or Music appreciation would make sense but any major-relevant courses would have to be taken at the college OP graduates from imho.

I mean this is the most respectful and loving way, but you sound just like my mother lol I think you are right this is a big big motivating factor!! I am going to fly out next week to see all three

This is precisely what I will my family who say to hurry it up! I can see how a faster undergrad experience that allows me to get to a grad school quicker would be appealing, but as you said: I have the opportunity to attend some other really world class institutions (not that Amherst isn’t world class it is). It might be a bit discouraging but to say the name of a prestigious school to motivated others from my impoverished community would be incredible. I almost feel like this decision is bigger than me. I was also admitted to Columbia, but I am not attracted to it for personal reasons

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Which do you personally lean towards for IR with nat security focus? Brown or Yale?

I do not know enough about either to have an opinion

@everyone an update… I reach out out to Georgetown admissions today about an early decision since I have upcoming admissions response deadlines (a lot of people do this) and the just emailed me saying they are leaning towards waitlist or deny… I feel very depressed now. I know I shouldn’t and I have amazing opportunities but gosh I was so in love. It’s like I’ve been stood up at the prom. I was told one thing and now it doesn’t look like it will happen. This is so where I wanted to go. Any advice now is welcome.

I will also be flying out tomorrow to tour Brown, Yale, and Amherst College over this next week.

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Yes, I would be in the transfer dorm. From the nontraditional and regular transfers I’ve talked to at Amherst that really don’t feel like the age will be a big deal. They all said that people are more likely to ask my year of graduation vs my age. I also look really young imHo lol. I just mentioned as well, that Georgetown gave me a soft rejection today after I requested an early decision because of acceptance deadlines. This narrows down my search and I’m so sad about it… For additional context in cause this is an outlier I’m missing I was just admitted to Boston U as well. But I don’t feel too hot about it.

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The 3 we’ve discussed on this thread have always been the ones to focus on.

I don’t think the name of the college matters that much in terms of responsibility towards your community - not sure they’ve heard of Brown or Amherst but you could explain it to them (for Brown, Ivies; for Amherst, Little ivies and Nescac). In fact you could be the first and create a pipeline for your neighborhood, give advice at the HS. So, the name wouldn’t matter in terms of representation and what you do with it matters more.

Do specifically ask the students at Amherst whether they hang out with older students at UMass. In class, there’ll be no problem, but you want to ensure there’s a social circle out there you want to join. I’m assuming you’re well past discovering beer for instance :wink: so you want to make sure thet whatever you’re into, you can find (whether it’s debate or hiking or boardgames or tango…)
It may even be a benefit: you stand out on campus (less academic competition…) but when you want to see older students, you don’t have to hang out with grad students at your own college, you can just find them elsewhere where you don’t compete with them. Of course the downside is that your social life would be partly away from the college community.

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OP- hugs. It stings to be rejected, but they’ve made your decision making a lot easier. And while DC has some advantages, it has some disadvantages as well. So the old saw- when a door closes, a window opens. You’ve got your window now- three exceptional choices.

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I reached out to nontrads at all schools and everyone seemed to be really happy and enjoyed their experiences.

Talked to Georgetown today and unfortunately they said they are leaning towards waitlist or deny. VERY sad :frowning:

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This is an amazing comment and really makes me think. Thank you so much for this. I will be visiting all 3 campus this week. But wow, what a perspective and you’re exactly right.

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They would never know that they were async or even online classes. There’s absolutely no indication on my transcript. To be fair, Amherst doesn’t even know their asynch, they just matched them up with other similar courses that they offer and gave me an approved list. I even verified this yesterday and they confirmed that if I enroll all of the credits accepted that were on my admissions letter will transfer. I just have to send in a final transcript that proves I made above a C in the courses I’m currently taking. For all I know Brown and Yale might do this too, but it seems unlikely when reading their policies (ALTHOUGH Amherst’s policy says they do not take online classes period either, but like I said I verified this). The only way Brown or Yale will know is if they request a syllabus, in which it clear states to type of class. They will most likely do this to evaluate credits. I even asked Amherst if a syllabus would be required at any time and they said no, the classes are already approved, a transcript is all that’s needed.

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If you keep an open mind and heart, you may be dazzled by some of the visits this week. These are three campuses that all have amazing things to offer, both physically and academically. Allow yourself today to mourn the potential disappointment of Georgetown, but don’t wallow. Move on so that you can really enjoy and evaluate these incredible opportunities.

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