I appreciate this. Yes, I’ve talked with nontrads at all schools. I will say that Brown seems to have the happiest and most proud students from RUE. Yale’s EWP seemed…a little sad. As far as the credits it’s unfortunate because 1) no one explains to you that this is a big thing for most colleges when it comes to transferring credits, and 2) given my career there was no way I could do anything other than async. I feel punished for my nontraditional path, but alas, I understand. For all they know anyone could have been posing as me and taking the class.
They are willing to pay for you to be on campus for 4 years. I realize that at your age, it might not be what you want, but I would hardly perceive it to be a punishment.
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I don’t want to downplay my online courses as I come from the best community college in the US (SMC) who has the highest transfer rates to the top schools. Another thing to think about that my father mentioned to me is because Amherst does not have a grad school, I could (if accepted to the program) do a 5 year accelerated masters at Brown or Yale.
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I will most likely be double majoring in French wherever I go.
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Thank you so much for the kind words. This hurts, but I am blessed
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Very true, thank you for this.
With respect to your interests in the study of international relations and French, three of your schools of interest appear in both of these sites:
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I’m glad you’re going to visit all of these schools. It should make your decision much more clear. Even if you remain confused, at least you’ll know much more about the various pros and cons to weigh. Let us know what happens!
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I think this is where you’re mistaken.
There are many schools where you can have exposure to great profs, etc. for an IR degree or a degree with a national security focus.
One of my daughter’s profs - who she loves - bio below She’s met with ambassadors, worked with the George HW Bush Center for US/China relations and is taught by a career diplomat.
Your four choices are AWESOME - don’t get me wrong. But you are so focused ono the pedigree that you’re missing the bigger picture - because if you are at a school with engaged students and faculty and I’m guessing all four of these are (as well as many others out there), you can have a wonderful experience. You’re trying to find this perfect pedigree/experience school - and it’s just not the reality.
You will read, write, discuss, and learn at all four of these - and if your list was different, you’d have every equal opportunity to do so - hence YOU need to find the right school - and not the school that others are telling you is right. You seem to think one of these four has a monopoly on what you seek - and truth is there’s probably 40 or 60, including these four - and you just have to go with your gut and pick on.
This professor below (still an industry guy) works at two universities I’m told and balances weekly travel to DC and Europe - and is motivating/impacting kids at schools not even in the hemisphere pedigree wise that you’re looking at.
You are getting to study at world class institutions which is clearly important to you - but forget the world class and just realize - you are getting to study - period - it’ll come down to what you put into it - if you put a lot in, you’ll get a lot out - regardless of the school name. Kids at so many programs get to experience studs like this guy below- more than you’ll ever know - because these four schools or even ten don’t have a monopoly at leadership positions in the government.
Since March 2008, Deputy Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs at the U.S. Department of State, where he is responsible for Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, and Belarus affairs, as well as regional nonproliferation issues.
From 2005-2007 served on the National Security Council as Director for Europe and Eurasia, with responsibility for coordinating U.S. policy on Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, the Caucasus, Central Asia, the Black Sea region and Caspian energy. Later with the creation of the South and Central Asia Directorate…was Director for Central Asia.
Deputy Assistant Secretary for International Affairs at the U.S. Treasury Department from 2003-2005 where he received the Exceptional Service Award, Treasury’s second highest award. Previously he was Senior Professional Staff for Europe and Eurasia on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. has also served as Counselor for International Affairs at the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and as Senior Foreign and Defense Policy Advisor for the United States House of Representatives Policy Committee.
Before joining the Government was a director for the Eurasia Foundation and an election analyst for the Joint Election Observation Mission in Tajikistan. He has served as an international election observer throughout Eurasia. is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the International Institute of Strategic Studies (London).
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You cannot go wrong with any of these. I have a feeling that these visits will lead you to clarity and greatly inform your decision.
Which one feels the most like home?
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I don’t know about the other two, but Brown provides the opportunity to complete both a Master’s degree and a Bachelor’s degree concurrently, in either 8 or 9 semesters. This would be dependent on the program of interest a) offering a Master’s program and b) offering the concurrent degree opportunity, but it might be something to ask about. I am just thinking that might mitigate the issue of spending 4 years on campus instead of the shorter time that Amherst is offering.
My understanding is that your financial aid award will cover this for students completing the concurrent degree in 8 semesters, and may cover the 9th semester for those completing it in 9. Definitely double-check, though.
Concurrent Bachelor’s/Master’s Degrees | Graduate School | Brown University
I don’t see a master’s program available for International Relations, but there is one for Public Affairs and one for Public Humanities.
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@Publisher and I don’t share the same views as it relates to LACs in general. However, in this case, I have to say I agree with his take.
I was almost out of law school at 26 and even though I was still as green as a salad at that age, I was nothing like the 18-year old who entered college as a freshman. Amherst is about undergrads, so you know the age group you’ll encounter there. Sure, U Mass Amherst has grad students, but do you really want to start college thinking your social peers are going to be at a school elsewhere in town? I wouldn’t.
Also, the Pioneer Valley, which I love btw, is a bit deceiving and stats don’t really cut the mustard for assessing what it would be like to live there. Amherst is a lovely but very small college town, a drive away from Northampton which is also a lovely but very small college town. There is space in the Pioneer Valley between towns and they don’t come together as one big developed town to make you feel like you’re in a small city. Not. At. All.
Amherst is a fabulous school overflowing with resources, and it has a recognizable name. But it’s a place for traditional undergrads (age-wise) IMO. I would self-select out of it if I were 26.
As for Brown, GT and Yale … I would choose Yale or Brown over GT, but I know GT is super tippy top for IR. Only you can make that call.
As between Brown and Yale, great choices. My kid is at Brown, we love the school and we love Providence. I like it much more than I do New Haven, and I think I would have even at your age.
Good luck.
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@everyone I thought I would update everyone about my trip this past week. Wow, am I glad that I did it. If I hadn’t of taken the trip, I most likely would have chosen Amherst. I fantasized the idea of the environment and taking advantage of everything they have to offer with the extremely small enrollment. I spent the entire day on campus, meeting professors, seeing the doors, etc. And honestly I was sold. Then I met the students. I started talking with regular and transfer students and the maturity gap became evident. Now, this of course will be found on any campus, but it was the size of Amherst (less than 2k) that magnified it. It felt like high school all over again and a place where drama was sure to happen. I talked to a couple of girls who told me that everyone would know who I was because of my background and past career experiences (something I haven’t talked about here but would certainly bring awareness to other people). They even told me that they have an anonymous app where they talk about professors and other students? It just felt like an environment that I did not want to be apart of at this age, but if I was 18 would have loved it. It was a gorgeous town and the campus was amazing. However, I can confidently say that I do not want to risk my academic career being a part of a potentially toxic and immature environment that’s magnified due to its size.
Next, I went to Yale. Yale was another beautiful campus with breathtaking architecture. The students weren’t on campus because finals were just over, but my tour guide was nice and certainly more mature. Hopefully, and from what I what, that’s also a representation of the entire student body. The city of New Haven is terrible. It was gritty and run down and I did not feel safe. And I mean right outside of the front gates of the university felt like that, not just a few blocks away. I’m coming in as an Eli Whitney student, and while that means I have absolutely every right and opportunity as traditional students, the only thing that I cannot do is live on campus in the residential housing system. This is a huge part of Yale and while I would still be assigned to a college and access everything it has to offer, I would have to find off campus housing. This means that I would live most likely a 20-30 min walk and have to use the shuttle. Which is fine, but I worry that I wouldn’t get to experience everything that normal students would, but that’s not really why I’m there. My tour guide made me feel good that Eli’s are not discriminated or separated in any way, even saying that her friend dates one, but it’s just a worry. The only real thing is how much I didn’t like the city.
Finally I went to Brown. Wow, I love Brown. Providence is a beautiful city and felt so safe and clean. The campus was lovely, in my opinion almost nicer than Yale. It was more centrally located and immaculate. It didn’t have the gothic architecture but it was kept in better shape. The students were so friendly (I’ve had bad experiences with snobby Yale students online but this may just be an anomaly). The students seemed happy and were playing on the lawns. Yale might be like this too but I didn’t get to see them, plus Brown is already know for this. I could live on campus or I could live off. Either of which I would be fine with because Providence is so lovely. I had my own private tour guide through I guy I met online and he was awesome. Answered even question and was even older than me and an undergrad! I can’t express out much happier and more relaxed I felt at Brown. And everyone I talked to said how easy it would be to excel at my major, even saying it’s what the athletes study lol. I only see this as an opportunity to differentiate myself and show how much I care. I would also probably double major in something else.
My decision. Now, you all might not like this answer as I decide between Brown and Yale, but I would still appreciate any insight and thoughts about what I’m going to say. As much as I love Brown, I understand that Yale is simply going to open up more doors for me in the long run for where I want to go. The Global Affairs major does scare me, with all of the advanced economics that require math that I have never been super comfortable with, but I think I could study Poli Sci or history instead. I’ve researched it and a lot of people who work in international relations have studied those two subjects and have gotten to where I want to be. Even though I hated New Haven, I am 26 and I need to understand that it’s not just about what makes me confortable. If I was 18 that might be different, but when I started this journey I knew it would be hard and it’s extremely difficult for me to think about passing over an amazing opportunity to study at Yale just because I didn’t like the city. I will have a supportive group of fellow nontraditionals to lean into, and I’m there to get an education, not live in the residential houses. Yale is widely known to fill the government and that is something I need to take advantage of. If I’m missing something or if anyone has any thoughts, please feel free to share. I have not 100% made a decision but this is what I’m thinking. Please let me know your thoughts.
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Glad you got the benefit of the first hand experience.
I wouldn’t be concerned about Yale opening doors that Brown can’t. In the circles you aspire to both schools are comparably recognized and admired.
Of course Yale is a wonderful school but I wouldn’t base your decision on some perceived lack of comparable opportunities.
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So you are choosing between Yale and Brown. Everything you wrote indicates to me that you would be happier on the Brown campus than Yale. You know…you have to live there for however many years. Pick the place where you think you will be the happiest…happy students do better in college than unhappy ones.
Congratulations. You have a bright future at either of these colleges.
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In the International relations and security circles you think that Brown and Yale are comparable? I’m truly asking as I do not know, but everyone I talk to (especially on Reddit) and elsewhere, says that the government is overwhelmingly Yale. I just feel like the prestige of the name alone would take me further but would love more elaboration on this.
While I do think I would be happier at Yale, I also think that as an older student giving up a career it’s not all about happiness. It’s about doing what I think is going to be best strategically for myself. I just know, at least from my research, that Yale is the dominant power in international relations over Brown. I would love to hear your further thoughts.
Brown***
Depends how you define international relations and security.
There’s a lot more schools represented - including military academies - than you likely realize.
SUNY Geneseo, Wheaton College, Arizona State and more just in the initial names at the State Dept for example. Yes, they have Harvard and Brown too - I didn’t see a Yale but didn’t look deep.
In defense, it’s mostly military affiliated folks - but there’s a U Memphis with a Masters at Webster, U of San Francisco, Long Island University, U of Northern Colorado with a Masters at Denver and more. Yes, they have JHU, Penn and other top schools.
As I noted in a far earlier post, I think you are way over believing the hype - at least in regards to leadership in various governmental agencies related to security, etc. Of course, if there’s a new administration, these folks will change.
The point being - pick the best school for you and you’ll be fine. You had great ones to choose from and have narrowed it to two - if one pulls you more, that’s the one for you.
Good luck.
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