<p>Wow. People can rationalize anything.</p>
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<p>You don’t eliminate poverty by getting rid of people. </p>
<p>The issue of poverty often has more to do with corrupt gov’ts, substance abuse, etc. </p>
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<p>NOt sure what you’re asking here. It’s not about losing people. The Church will never sanction gay marriage. It believes that marriage is between one man and one woman. It won’t allow polygamy either…no matter how much the folks love each other, are good people, would make good parents, etc. </p>
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<p>The fact that some people behaved in a horrid manner (were pedophiles or were part of the cover up) is not related to doctrines. Bad behavior is bad behavior. The Church is both human and divine. The human side is imperfect and sins (sometime horribly). As for the cover up…some of the cover ups were awful. However, some weren’t intentional cover ups… There was a time when society believed that pedophiles could be “treated” and cured. So, in those cases, those priests were sent away for treatment, and then (after believing that they were cured), they were quietly reassigned. In hindsight, that was awful. But it wasn’t done with an evil mind. Compare it to a medical procedure/treatment that was thought to be beneficial and later found to be useless or worse. At the time, the people of goodwill thought they were doing the right thing. Also, there were many cases where the parents of the abused child INSISTED that there be no publicity at all out of fear that their child would be ridiculed/teases. So, matters were (often wrongly) handled very quietly). </p>
<p>I don’t want this thread side-tracked by the whole pedophilia thing because that issue is so extensive it would need its own forum. Personally, I blame a LOT of that on they way men can be (most men…not talking about priests). Many men will not speak out when they see “men behaving badly”. The whole Penn State thing would never have gone on like it did if there had been women amongst the staff that knew. That TV Show, “What would you do” often showcases how women will actively get involved when they see something bad happening, while (too often) the men ignore or walk away. (not always, but way too many times!)</p>
<p>Wow. People can rationalize anything.</p>
<p>I’m explaining. There’s a big difference. Your idea that the Church should sell off all of its bldgings and artwork is short-sighted. Even if it did so, it wouldn’t eliminate the world’s poverty. Even if the Church sold everything (and then what? have no church bldgs?), and gave an equal amount to every poor person in the world, how much do you think each poor person would get??? You seem to think that each poor person would be given thousands and thousands of dollars.</p>
<p>I just clicked on this thread after not checking since yesterday.</p>
<p>How the heck did it get from Pope Francis to birth control, poverty, gay marriage, pedophilia, etc., with not even a mention of what the OP intended? I probably don’t need to go back and start from the beginning. My guess - someone (maybe a couple someones) feels the need to vent about the Catholic church in general. Well … changed my mind about reading through this thread … like a rat deserting a sinking ship I’m checking out. While I’m sure the discussion is of much value, my attention span (and patience) just lagged.</p>
<p>Happily heading to the Laura Ingalls Wilder thread. ;)</p>
<p>I agree that we’ve gotten off-topic, but there should be no harm in offering some explanations or clarifications as long as the questions stay civil. </p>
<p>I am still bothered by the assumption that the Church should sell off all of its churches and artwork and give the money to the poor. Does this person think the US gov’t should sell off the White House, The Smithsonian museums and contents, etc and give the money to the poor. Does this person think that the US should sell off all the National Parks and give the money to the poor. How about all the state buildings and all the artworks in gov’t owned museums? Should everything be sold and given to the poor? </p>
<p>Does this person think everyone here should sell their homes and move into the most minimal housing, etc, and give everything extra to the poor. How about people’s college savings accts for their kids? Should everyone be give up those dollars for the poor? Does it mean that we don’t care about the poor and that we’re not doing enough for the poor if we have retirement accts, etc?</p>
<p>If we have legit reasons for having savings, retirements, and nice homes, and our gov’ts have legit reasons for having White houses and museums, they’re not “rationalizing” by explaining why they’re not selling them and giving the money to the poor.</p>
<p>I think you’re missing the point, Mom2collegekids. Clearly you are very educated and informed about the Catholic Church but here you have an opportunity to educate people who are asking questions that MANY people ask and wonder about and yet your posts are coming off as defensive and arrogant. The lololololololol comment a page or two back, for instance.</p>
<p>What I’m really interested in and haven’t gotten an answer to (hoping the moderators hang with this thread long enough for it to get back to an open and respectful discussion).</p>
<ol>
<li>For cafeteria Catholics (for instance those that “don’t care if Gays get married”), how do you reconcile your views and beliefs with those that the Catholic Church holds? Do you feel that by continuing to claim Catholicism in some form, you are contributing to a discriminatory practice?</li>
<li>For those that are practicing Catholics, are you hoping for reform with this new Pope? What would that look like?</li>
<li> As Mom2 explained, some of the doctrine is never going to change (birth control, gay marriage, women priests). Believing that to be true (as I do) are you comfortable with your status as a Catholic? Why? Why do you stay if many of the doctrines oppose your personal ideology?<br></li>
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<p>Again, I’m not looking for an argument here. I want to understand. As I said before, most of my friends and family are in the cafeteria! Lol. I think that they stay out of fear and sometimes laziness. Some stay due to family pressure.</p>
<p>Most of us belong to our religion by birth and culture very few choose a religion based on a belief system.</p>
<p>Most of my catholic friends do not agree with the vast majority of what the church itself believes but they stay involved in the church.
I believe it is cultural not faith based for many.</p>
<p>I also would ask a particular rabid Catholic to take the foot off the pedal. Realize you aren’t converting anyone and may in fact be doing exactly the opposite. Every point is not an invitation for argument. </p>
<p>On a lighter note, you can read a sort of cool econometric paper about the election of a pope. It includes a nice little history of the methods used over the centuries. You can find it at [The</a> Papal Conclave: How do Cardinals Divine the Will of God?](<a href=“http://www.international.ucla.edu/cms/files/PERG.Toman.pdf"]The”>UCLA - International Institute ..::.. Error).</p>
<p>The lololololololol comment a page or two back, for instance.</p>
<p>My lolololol comment was because I found it funny that someone who isn’t Catholic was stating things to be doctrine that aren’t. (or worse, if she’s a former Catholic, then very sad that she’d be so uninformed.) </p>
<p>It would be one thing if the person ASKED something like: Would these changes be considered to be doctrinal changes? Especially after it has been written that doctrines can’t change. Offering up changes that everyone knows about should have been a red flag that maybe those aren’t doctrines. </p>
<p>But, no, the person stated some things as fact (claims of doctrinal changes) about a faith that she knows little about. I can’t imagine doing that about someone else’s faith without being able to notate respectable sources of info. </p>
<p>If it’s arrogant to state that certain things will never change or can never change, then so be it. Are we supposed to pretend that some of those things might change in hopes of tickling the ears of those who’d like those changes?</p>
<p>To get back to the original question, I think Pope Francis was a good choice. He seems more in tune to some of the things that I believe in. For example, not living in the huge church in Argentina, but renting a small apartment, cooking his own meals, etc. Hopefully he’ll make a few changes in Rome. </p>
<p>But the other changes will have to happen before I return.</p>
<p>*I also would ask a particular rabid Catholic to take the foot off the pedal. Realize you aren’t converting anyone and may in fact be doing exactly the opposite. Every point is not an invitation for argument. *</p>
<p>Gee, is that supposed to be veiled? lol</p>
<p>Anyway… You really have no idea if my clarifications might be helping some understand. As someone who has been trained in Catholic Apologetics I know for a fact that I have helped literally thousands understand doctrines and teachings over the last 25+ years. And, I have long lost count of the number of people I have helped bring into the church. </p>
<p>Now, some might not be ready to absorb the info right now, but often the seed is planted. Compare it to when a parent explains to a child why he/she isn’t be allowed to do something that the child wants to do. At the time of the explanation, the child doesn’t want to accept what the parent is saying. But, sometimes, at some point, the child has an “aha” moment and thinks, “oh, that’s why mom/dad insisted on that rule”. Of course, the child may never have that “aha” moment, but that doesn’t mean that the parent shouldn’t have offered an explanation. Right?</p>
<p>It’s the tone, Mom2college, it’s the tone.</p>
<p>Anyway…</p>
<p>Tom,
yes, I agree with you about the birthright of religion. For me it was the same way. My parents are (well, Dad is gone now) very religious in a superficial way. My Dad was a Eucharistic Minister which means that he served communion at Mass. This was his greatest pride. For me to leave the church was hard because I felt guilty and that it would disappoint them.
I actually have a memory from the day that I received my First Holy Communion. I remember thinking to myself that I shouldn’t do it. That it wasn’t right. I felt the same way at the time of my Confirmation but I had a great friend who was a Priest and he convinced me to go through with it. I should have listened to my heart but I was a kid.</p>
<p>I guess I think that staying in a religion that is a bad fit is a wasted opportunity to really feel comfortable with your place in the world and to do the work, whether internally or externally that will reconcile your actions with your beliefs. A lot of Catholics keep waiting and hoping for the Church to change in a way that will make it more palatable for them to stay. That won’t happen for many of us…ever.</p>
<p>*For example, not living in the huge church in Argentina, but renting a small apartment, cooking his own meals, etc. Hopefully he’ll make a few changes in Rome. *</p>
<p>Yes, he is a humble man. But the Papal Apt isn’t huge either. I remember when JPII was ill and the “death watch” was going on. The details about the Papal Apt were very interesting. Instead of being some huge grandiose place, it’s not big. Yes, it has some old precious things in it, but it’s not some mansion like place.</p>
<p>He wll likely live there for security reasons. It’s not likely that he’s going to venture out of Vatican City and rent an apt over by the Spanish Steps or some other touritst trap area. </p>
<p>As for cooking his own meals, that’s doubtful as well. Not out of laziness or anything, but likely because his schedule will now even be much more demanding. And, it’s not as if he’s going to be out doing weekly grocery shopping in Rome, either. Even very busy humble people have to let others do some things for them when time is precious. </p>
<p>did you hear that Benedict’s pension is 3000 euros a month. Not grandiose either.</p>
<p>EPTR- my D and her boyfriend are seriously liberal on gay rights, neither are religious but when they discuss marriage and children her boyfriend would like to get married in the church and have any children go through all the rituals he went through. He acknowledged it makes no sense from a faith stand point and gets zero preesure from his family on the issue.</p>
<p>* A lot of Catholics keep waiting and hoping for the Church to change in a way that will make it more palatable for them to stay. That won’t happen for many of us…ever*</p>
<p>I don’t get this. Join a church that has the beliefs that you want. If that’s Religion X, then so be it. Why expect an existing Church with firm doctrines to change? </p>
<p>Imagine the Church if everyone’s desired changes were implemented… </p>
<p>Some might want “one divorce/ one remarriage” to be allowed. Some might want two. Some might want unlimited divorces/remarriages. </p>
<p>Some might want polygamy…as crazy at that may seem, some could argue that serial sexual romances or serial marriages aren’t that much different.</p>
<p>Some might want priests to be able to date (ugh, if that ever was allowed).</p>
<p>Some might want priests to be able to divorce and remarry.</p>
<p>Some might want themselves and their priests to be able to “shack up” with whoever his/her latest love is. </p>
<p>Some might want “casual hook ups” to be ok for everyone…high school kids, adults, priests, etc. Can you imagine seeing your parish priest checking in each week at the No-tell Motel with a different partner each week? (ok, I’m getting silly now. )</p>
<p>And if BC becomes OK, then who is it OK for? Only married folks? What if you think premarital sex is ok. Then wouldn’t you think that the Church should sanction BC for the hookups? </p>
<p>What if you wanted to believe that Jesus wasn’t God, but just a man? Should the Church change that teaching for you and some others that believe that way? </p>
<p>And, then what about the people who don’t want these changes? (If the change is one of custom, then they have to “get over it”, but if the change was an assault on doctrine, then they’d have as much right to expect their views to be accepted/respected as those who want doctrinal changes. Right?) </p>
<p>Where does it end? It has to end somewhere, and wherever that “end” is, there will be people saying the changes don’t include THEIR beliefs. </p>
<p>No, if you don’t believe what the Church teaches, then the best thing to do is to ask questions with an open and prayerful mind in hopes that you’ll get clarification and understanding. And, if you still can’t accept it, then stay and hope that the understanding comes at some point, or go to a church that matches your beliefs.</p>
<p>“Are you serious? You want the Church to sell what? The Sistine Chapel? lol The Vatican? (which is a sovereign state).”</p>
<p>As I remember (I wasn’t there), the Sistine Chapel was paid for with goods and houses forcibly taken from my ancestors and sold off. It’s stolen goods.</p>
<p>(The new Pope could give it back. ;))</p>
<p>I wish the new Pope all the best, and he seems like a nice man. (I know lots of people who take the bus and cook their own meals, but…)</p>
<p>People of all faiths (and those without any) believe all kinds of strange things. If it makes us better people, and gives us solace, so be it.</p>
<p>As I remember (I wasn’t there), the Sistine Chapel was paid for with goods and houses forcibly taken from my ancestors and sold off. It’s stolen goods.</p>
<p>I’ll happily look into that. If there were some wrongs, those should be righted in some way…albeit whatever way is chosen could never be perfect. </p>
<p>Of course, the Church of England has churches that it confiscated from the Catholic Church. Is it ever going to give those churches back? Maybe the CoE could sell those churches and give the proceeds to Mini and his wronged people? Maybe St. Thomas More’s descendents could make a case against the CoE?</p>
<p>Oh, I don’t want them to give it back. But I also think that all this talk about “charity” rings pretty hollow.</p>
<p>Whoops. That’s not fair. I’m actually joyful when people feel an obligation to care for those less fortunate than themselves (though I think it is usually better to do so through institutions explicitly set up for that purpose.) (The best job I ever had was working for Catholic Charities.)</p>
<p>Il papa terribile was a strange man, and getting the ceiling painted with the funds he stole (along with his predecessor) was a much better use than his penchant for war. Julius was also one of the openly gay Popes. But he was also a switchhitter, and had a bunch of kids.</p>
<p>“As Mom2 explained, some of the doctrine is never going to change (birth control, gay marriage, women priests). Believing that to be true (as I do) are you comfortable with your status as a Catholic? Why? …”</p>
<p>Faith. So much is beyond my imperfect human understanding. But when at Mass I proclaim that I believe in one holy catholic apostolic church I mean it. I believe that God has and does reveal means of salvation through the Church. And Her apostolic succession traced back to Peter gives the Church divine authority. I believe Christ’s claim that he is God Incarnate and the Catholic Church is the divinely authorized Body of this Christ.
Not in tune with the times, I know. But that timelessness is central to my comfort level as a Catholic</p>
<p>Of those who think the Catholic Church should change to accommodate them, do you feel the same way about other religions or denominations? The LDS have both perpetrated some bad behavior and had some historical wrongs against them. Should that religion change its doctrine to meet your needs? How about Islam? </p>
<p>You can come to a nice, inclusive Protestant church like mine. Probably all of your objections would be addressed. Why try to make Catholicism change to suit you? Illegal behavior is one thing, but that isn’t the sole purview of Catholic priests, it’s just scary for some people to call out the raping rabbis or the icky imams. Also, the priest is probably not going to shoot you in the face or bring his goons to ruin your life.</p>
<p>Anyway, I invite any of you Christians to join me at an inclusive, diverse, welcoming church that is known for its music and food.</p>