Prestige as a constraint on lifestyle

Parent Cafe
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<p>Just musing a lot today about my future, hence these random posts. :)</p>

<p>I’m thinking about the tradeoffs involved in going a more prestigious route versus a route based on other preferences. For example, if you get into Yale Law and University of Washington Law, you will probably wind up in New Haven even if you really, really want to live in Seattle and hate winters. If you want to go to medical school, you might wind up in Baltimore even though you have always wanted to live in Hawaii. And so on.</p>

<p>How do you negotiate the compromises between these desires? Do you choose the more prestigious route regardless of other priorities? Or go with what you prefer regarding lifestyle and try to be prestigious in that location?</p>

<p>Of course, the best is to have several prestigious options so you can adjust lifestyle factors among them, but what if you don’t?</p>

<p>I’m not talking about financial considerations for college admissions, in which you cannot pay for a more prestigious option. Or about family considerations, where you have to live somewhere to care for an aging parent, etc. I’m talking purely about making decisions based on different kinds of preferences (for prestige and opportunity vs. other personal considerations).</p>

<p>How have you handled this issue in your own life?</p>

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<p>It’s all about what will make you happy. If you (hypothetically?) get into Yale Law and UW Law, and dread the idea of New Haven while being excited about the prospect of living in Seattle, then go to UW Law. Anyone who would chose otherwise, quite frankly, is a fool. Happiness trumps all, even money and prestige. Besides, it’s not like UW Law is a bad school. </p>

<p>It boils down to ‘happiness vs prestige’, and I feel bad for anyone who chooses the latter…</p>

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<p>This is a pretty artificial question. Law school is a total of 26 months or so, not your whole life. You can tough it out for 26 months in New Haven, spend your two summers in Seattle, and work in Seattle when you graduate. Yale Law School grads tend not to have trouble finding jobs. If the choice were, say, Vanderbilt or Tulane vs. UWashington, then fine, it would not be irrational at all to stay in Washington.</p>

<p>The other thing about this question is that “lifestyle” for much of law school consists of sitting in classes, doing research, writing papers, reading casebooks, and talking about law. The emotional landscapes of law schools may differ somewhat – competitive vs. collaborative, secure vs. anxious – but their physical landscapes aren’t that important. It really doesn’t matter much if Mt. Ranier is 50 or 3,000 miles away, you’re not going to be there often.</p>

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<p>JHS – that’s just it. Your answer and gravitysrainbow’s answer would lead to two totally different conclusions about where to attend. So why is the question artificial?</p>

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<p>The question is artificial because I don’t think “dreading living in New Haven” is a particularly strong reason not to spend 26 months there, largely inside the perfectly lovely Yale Law School building. No one would say to make permanent choices that make you miserable for the sake of prestige – that would be horribly self-destructive. And, to some extent, the choice of where to go to law school CAN be something of a permanent choice, because below the very top layer law schools are very regional, and even local. But in the case of Yale (and Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Michigan, a few others), that’s not true, and going there isn’t anything like making a tentative choice to spend most of your career in that state or region. It’s very short-term, and has a lot of benefits.</p>

<p>So gravitysrainbow and I agree completely on first principles, but I don’t see how those principles have anything to do with the question you posed. </p>

<p>I will admit that part of my attitude is the product of my belief that Yale vs. Washington isn’t just a matter of two essentially fungible products where one has a more prestigious brand. Yale is MUCH more prestigious, in large part because it offers things that Washington doesn’t. It won’t do a better job of training you to pass the Washington bar exam – it won’t even do a better job of training you to pass the Connecticut bar exam – but it will do a better job of almost everything else a law school can do. Passing that up because you can’t bear to leave Seattle for a few months (without more significant ties, like children in school) is just immature. It’s not much better than failing to go to parent-teacher night at your children’s school because your favorite TV show is on.</p>

<p>Now, do you HAVE to pick Yale over Harvard or Stanford just because Yale is more prestigious and arguably objectively better? Of course not (and I didn’t). The differences between those law schools is not great enough to outweigh even relatively unimportant personal preferences. Ditto, in my example, Tulane vs. Washington.</p>

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<p>Consider also the people and approach you are likely to encounter.</p>

<p>Do you enjoy spending time with highly driven, competitive people who want to work 24/7 to achieve their goals?</p>

<p>Is that the lifestyle to which you aspire?</p>

<p>To continue with the law school example - I have also heard that the more prestigious schools focus on the more abstract/theoretical side of law, whereas some of the others spend more time teaching the “how tos” of being a practicing lawyer – this type of thing might also play into the prestige vs contentment dilemma.</p>

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<p>Its hard to know these things at such a young age, to see where you’d like to be lifestyle-wise. Until you really are in it and see what it takes to “make it” nobody really knows for sure. As far as your law school question, one consideration is where you see yourself practicing. A Yale law degree where we live in the Southeast would probably hurt you. You’d be an outsider, so to speak, and some people might feel threatened by your high powered degree. The lawyers in our city pretty much all went instate to the flagship law school and have known each other forever. Its a tight knit network. If you wanted to work for a prestigious Wall Street law firm, you’d opt for Yale, not where these guys went. They knew from the git-go that they wouldn’t want to work in NY, that they wanted to stay here with this lifestyle.</p>

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<p>As relates to my previous post, when I worked for a Wall St. law firm, alot of the attorneys started out thinking they wanted that life (80 hour workweeks, weekends, long commutes, not seeing family often, forget home for dinner, etc. but good $$) and then decided that they didn’t. At least they gave it a shot, got the experience and then moved on and out. Some joined corporations, some went to not for profits, others to the DA’s office, whatever. That lifestyle can be grueling but worth it for the right person but certainly not for everyone.</p>

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<p>When I got my MBA (back in 1876) I made a lifestyle decision to take a job in San Francisco rather than NY where most of my classmates went. But I agree with JHS, the decision on where to attend school for 2 or 3 years should not be a viewed as a huge lifestyle decision, unless you have the option of attending UC Santa Cruz to major in surfing.</p>

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<p>JHS –</p>

<p>I appreciate the insights. One thing that was difficult for me when I was deciding on colleges was the difference between long- and short-term causes of happiness (i.e., 3 years being less happy in New Haven = 30 years of a better career). Your perspective seems to take it as an assumption that prestige/opportunity is worth it for a short while. </p>

<p>Are the people who say “just do what makes you happy” as gravitysrainbow did, saying that “if law is important to you, you will be happier in New Haven despite it’s flaws, but if it’s not that important to you, you’ll be happy in University of Washington” (to continue the example)? How do you know which is more important to you when choosing a college or graduate school, since there’s a lot of uncertainty about where your career will lead, etc.?</p>

<p>Sorry I’m so clueless about this. My parents didn’t have careers, so they didn’t consider these trade-offs at all. (They were very immature in a lot of ways – you brought an ironic smile when you mentioned parents missing parent-teacher meetings for a TV show. My Dad did that, and he didn’t even like TV that much!)</p>

<p>One concern I have though is about getting “stuck” somewhere. It’s not true with Yale (and perhaps with other places that have national placement), but people tend to stay in the area after graduation. This relates to my other post about having your spouse limit your career options. If your spouse loves Connecticut, might you not get stuck there?</p>

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<p>dke may be overstating it about a Yale law degree hurting you in the South. If you really love it there, you would fit in pretty quickly. The fact of the matter is that there are so few Yale Law grads practicing anywhere in the South that it’s hard to tell what the facts are. (And it’s not because they have been driven out. Most of them don’t practice law, anyway. I have a YLS friend who is a tenured faculty member at a Southern law school, where he has been for 25 years. He likes it fine, and gets along with everyone.)</p>

<p>I had an acquaintance in college who was devastated when he didn’t get into University of Texas Law School, and “had” to go to Harvard instead. He loved Texas (his home), he wanted to try politics there eventually, and he was certain that not having gone to UTexas for college OR law school would kill him there. It didn’t work out that way, of course. He became a very big deal in Dallas, and ultimately a judge. He acquired his UTexas credential by marrying the (lovely, nice) Editor-in-Chief of the Texas Law Review for our year, who was more than happy to go to bat for him with all her buds. More than one way to skin a cat, if you care to.</p>

<p>returning: I don’t believe in prestige above all. I don’t really believe in prestige at all, unless it’s tied to real substance (which I think is clearly the case if you are talking about top law schools or business schools). Personally, when I went to law school I chose a school that was clearly less prestigious than two others that admitted me, but I didn’t think there was any real substantive difference, and I had (what turned out to be stupid) personal reasons for choosing the one I did. It all worked out fine for me. You don’t get stuck unless you want to be stuck. And no one really gets stuck in New Haven, because there’s hardly anything there to stick to!</p>

<p>Going to UWashington is practically a commitment to risk, at least, getting stuck in the Pacific Northwest. You may WANT to be stuck there, but if you change your mind you will have made it hard on yourself. Going to Yale means that you are deferring the question of where you want to live, that’s all.</p>

<p>(My response to your other thread has never happened, because it’s too complex. My wife and I made a bunch of tradeoffs for each other, to further the other’s career. Early on, I was much more mobile than she. Now I am practically immobile, and she is very mobile, except that she may have no place to go around here. It’s all a little threatening, frankly. We spend a lot of time apart, and things may get worse before they get better.)</p>

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<p>I graduated from a very prestigious undergraduate college, and a very prestigious graduate school in my field (not law, medicine, or business). I get invitations to nifty alumni events that don’t involve football or drinking beer, I get glamorous looking alumni magazines to drop around my house, and I have old college sweatshirts that stop traffic in my prestige-crazed neighborhood.</p>

<p>However, neither of those institutions gave me a golden ticket into a “better” social class, or a “better” career track. What I did get out of them that has been helpful in life is the clear and present knowledge that I am just as smart, and as capable, as anyone who graduated from fill-in-famous-name-here-college-or-university. When I am dealing with dingbats from fill-in-famous-name-here-college-or-university I don’t have to feel that I should believe that some how they are inherently “better” or “smarter” than I am, and I can treat them without any undue awe as the dingbats that they are.</p>

<p>The time I’ve spent as a student at the several “unprestigious” colleges and universities and community colleges where I’ve also studied, has taught me that there are smart, capable people everywhere, and that smart and capable can take you an awful long way. The college sweatshirt I wear the most was my dad’s, and is from a place that doesn’t stop traffic for its “prestige” but rather for its football team. I didn’t meet a single dingbat the year I studied there, and I’ve yet to meet an alum who is a dingbat. Go figure.</p>

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<p>I would personally love to go to UW over Yale. Pacific NW is one of the places I would consider living after getting my PhD, and Yale’s sports teams suck. I don’t know about law school, but a UW degree def does not commit you to living in the area after you graduate. There are not many colleges that grant degrees that restrict you to a certain region like you think there are…especially if it’s a big, public research institution. Most people with a graduate degree from any well known institution, be it UW or Yale, will have no trouble finding a job in any part of the US. Go to the place that will make you happy for the next few years, it’s ridiculous and stupid to choose prestige over you happiness and mental well being.</p>

<p>There are grad students and post docs in my research lab from all types of different schools. From MIT to Georgia Southern University, and they’re all smart, capable people. And there’s also grad students from other schools like Gettysburg and Loyola who come during the summer and their knowledge and efficiency is equal to the grad students here in our lab. When we all talk, there’s no difference in future locations or job types. The people from smaller, lesser known schools are still aiming to to live and hold jobs that the people from the better name schools are…and they think that way because students have done it before them.</p>

<p>Personally, I’m one of the sports people that happymomof1 was talking about. I was accepted to JHU and Carnegie Mellon for undergrad but that was only to see if I could get in…the hard decision was whether to attend Texas or Georgia Tech :)</p>

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<p>"I don’t know about law school, but a UW degree def does not commit you to living in the area after you graduate. "</p>

<p>I agree with you for this for about everything but law. </p>

<p>From what I’ve heard from many many lawyers, this is not true for law. From what they’ve told me, law is an area where where the school you go to does make a difference in terms of the jobs you get and your geographic region afterward. I’m sure there are individuals who find their way and become the exceptions, but as a general rule I’ve been told that that statement is not true for law. </p>

<p>I think “weather” is a poor reason to choose one over the other considering it’s just 3 years–and you’re not even in school for the entire 3 years, and especially when the 3 years gives you the opportunity to relocate anywhere after graduation. If the reason were spouse, or sick family member, etc. it would make more sense, but weather not so much. </p>

<p>I’m from the Pacific Northwest and I love it here, but for law, I would pick Yale over UW hands down. Not for the prestige, but because of its impact on your career. Yale is number one and will open many doors in terms of a law career and allow you to relocate to just about anywhere afterward–even the Pacific Northwest if that is where you so choose. One of my favorite high school teachers is a retired lawyer and I went and asked him that question when I first started considering law–does it matter? Is UW a viable option instead of gunning for the top colleges?(I was hoping it would be, since it might be more affordable…) But he said that while in undergraduate education he could see several reasons to choose either and that it came down to personal preference, it would make a huge difference for law, and that if I could get into the top ranked few, I should definitely go there instead. This coming from a guy who actually didn’t go to a prestigious undergrad. Tiers are important in law–and the difference between Yale & UW is huge. </p>

<p>If, however, you’re debating between Yale and other institutions in its tier–Stanford or Columbia or UChicago, for example, then I think it would make more sense to turn it down. </p>

<p>Or between, as another poster indicated, Tulane & UW, it would make sense to go to UW. But sacrifcing Yale for UW for climate is, well, quite a sacrifice for the sake of weather, esp. because in my opinion New England winters aren’t that bad and you could come back to the Pacific Northwest for summers.</p>

<p>If we’re talking undergrad, however, yeah, UW is a great choice. Cheaper. Better weather. Cheaper. And it’s an excellent research university and on par with some other universities for some of its departments(such as computer science). It makes total sense to turn down other “prestigious” universities for UW for undergrad.</p>

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<p>Great post, happymom.</p>

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<p>I agree with Pizzagirl - great post, happymom.</p>

<p>But I also agree with JHS that this is an artificial question… simply because no such compromise is necessary. The desire to live where and how you want - your “lifestyle” preferences - is not in conflict with the choice of educational institution. Whether it is for undergraduate, graduate or professional degree… you can choose any institution, anywhere and still live the lifestyle you want. If you don’t like the locale of your first choice institution, you can - as JHS says - tough it out and still live your preferred lifestyle in virtually every aspect of your life except, perhaps, wardrobe. (I realize that is a bit of an exaggeration, but only a bit). And, as he says, the “lesser” locale is a very temporary one.</p>

<p>Creating such dichotomies can paralyze one from making a decision. The dichotomy is artificial. The “issue” is no more significant than saying… should I go to School A when it is 3000 miles away from my favorite hairdresser? We can debate the merits of school vs. best hairdresser forever… it’s not an issue because the choice is (1) temporary, (2) worthy of being made on the basis of far more significant criteria.</p>

<p>Prestige vs. cost factors; prestige vs. networking in the locale where you intend to make your career; prestige vs. need to be where your spouse is employed or your children go to school… Factors such as these may involve compromise.</p>

<p>It’s important to allow yourself the gift of clear thinking. When you find yourself creating “issues” that really aren’t…, try to banish them and focus on matters that rise to a higher level.</p>