<p>jpro–do you think that discription applies to yourself, or are you a beleaguered exception?</p>
<p>I went to school in the midwest, and I am glad I didn’t bring that kind of judgmentalism out there. I found people to be just about the same as here, except they told me I talk too fast (and I’ll give you that!) </p>
<p>On the whole, I meet a very genuine, friendly, kind type of person in my neck of NJ. Perhaps I’m just lucky.</p>
<p>I’ve lived in NJ, rural Illinois, in the city of Chicago, Virginia Beach, in the East Bay area of San Francisco, and in San Jose. I’ve also spent some part of every summer for 32 years in the Northwoods of WI and the St. Louis suburbs. Prejudices and misconceptions abound everywhere. It might be hard to “understand” but it’s a fact nonetheless, and high school students can be particularly narrow-minded when it comes to such things. </p>
<p>But prejudices and misconceptions don’t spring from a vacuum. The culture at UC Santa Cruz differs quite a bit from the culture at UC Berkeley – and those are two schools located only two hours away from each other and populated primarily by undergraduates from the same state. Some of that difference is due to admissions selectivity, but some of it is due to self-selectivity on the part of the applicants themselves. So it’s reasonable to assume that the culture at Ivy schools – however different the eight may be from each other – would differ in some loose way from the culture at, for example, the large prestigious state universities such as UT, Michigan, UCB, UIUB, etc. or from small, midwestern LACs. </p>
<p>I can say with certainty that the type of students that my kids have known who have made Ivy admissions their life’s ambition have a distinctly different approach to life from other equally bright students who have taken a more laid-back approach to college admissions. What my kids didn’t know was that there was another contingent of less noisy and less visible students who ultimately landed at Ivy schools without the help of a long-term strategic planning committee. The kids who aggressively went after opportunities simply to pad the Ivy application were the noisiest and most visible, and to my kids at least, some of the least pleasant kids in the school. It didn’t matter that every year a sizeable handful of really nice, “under the radar” kids surprised everyone by getting into Yale or Princeton; the most aggressive, phoniest kids made the most noise and got the most attention. Ironically, they often weren’t the ones who actually got into Ivies, but the perception that Ivies are filled with kids like that remains.</p>
<p>When people outside the East Coast talk about “East Coast” the vast majority are not talking about rural Vermont, they’re talking about the heavily populated areas. And yes, those metropolitan areas are more crowded, the pace is quicker and as a rule, the people do not take the time to chat with strangers in line at the bank. If you want a laid-back atmosphere where people greet you with a warm smile wherever you go, NYC or Boston would not be my first choice. As a native of the NYC metropolitan area, I can find plenty of friendly people in NYC, but it takes some work on my part and if you’re not used to that, it can be hard to get used to.</p>
<p>It doesn’t matter whether Ivy schools are filled with East Coast students or not; what matters is the perception that they are. It is the same with schools like Tulane or Emory: it doesn’t matter that they are not predominately made up of students from the deep South; that is the predominant perception everywhere (except perhaps in the Northeast), and even after you give people the statistics, they are still doubtful–you can see it in their eyes. Once a student has begun the research, many misconceptions will be cleared up. But they have to do the research first and for many, certain “types” of schools–whether they are Ivies or schools in the South, or Texas or the Midwest, or large publics, or small LAC’s or whatever–are rejected without further study. Which is probably just fine, since there are already too many people applying to these schools as it is.</p>
<p>I would also add that the misconceptions can work in reverse: Quite a few students are surprised to find that there are plenty of non-intellectuals at Ivy schools. People sometimes have the idea that everyone walks around talking metaphysics all day long; they have somehow missed the memo about how Ivy students can party and throw up with the best (or worst, LOL) of 'em.</p>
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<p>I don’t know the people you are runnning into but come hang with me for a little while and I’ll introduce you to a whole new crowd of folks.
I have lived in NYC and the overwhelming majority of people I know are not like that.</p>
<p>Actually, 40% of Harvard is from the east coast and a great many of D friends are from within 40 miles of Boston.</p>
<p>sybbie, true or not, those sweeping generalizations describe how NYC feels to many visitors and newcomers and that is the perception that they share with the folks back home. When you talk about the people you “know”, remember that visitors and newcomers do not know them the way you know them. When I ask my aunt back in NJ how she’s doing and she replies that she’s “not dead yet”, I know I’m supposed to laugh. My in-laws in Missouri don’t know that; they are intensely uncomfortable with that kind of banter. Unless they get to know her, they will just think she’s irreverent and abrupt. That’s just an example of how outward appearances are deceiving; I am not accusing anyone anywhere of anything.</p>
<p>“I can say with certainty that the type of students that my kids have known who have made Ivy admissions their life’s ambition have a distinctly different approach to life from other equally bright students who have taken a more laid-back approach to college admissions.”</p>
<p>I have to say I agree with this. That is why I think this whole thread is a misconception that everyone either “wants Ivy” or “will not consider Ivy”. Some, like my own kid, didn’t break schools down as to Ivy or not Ivy. She just looked for schools that met her criteria. Her life’s ambition was not to get into an Ivy. She attends one but that school fit her list of what she wanted very well and she likes it a lot. I realize there are students out there (families even) who “want an Ivy”. I am just saying that all those who attend Ivies did not have “Ivy” itself as a goal. I also think that rejecting all Ivies is just as bad. I think that one needs to establish a list of college criteria and search for schools that meet those closely. </p>
<p>I realize that when someone was generalizing the “East Coast”, that they were not talking of rural Vermont and more like NYC or some such. But that is the problem with the generalization. All of the east is not like NYC. And even in NYC, there are people who don’t fit the stereotype. As well, there are folks who live in metropolitan areas like LA or Chicago who live some of these lifestylesl that those who live in metro NY live to some extent. </p>
<p>What is so great about the more selective schools is that they really value a diverse grouping geographically in their student population. That is a big plus to my kids in choosing such schools. </p>
<p>I understand the point about perceptions of student bodies at various schools but hopefully families look at the basic “stats” of a school’s profile. For me, I would have known that Emory or Tulane were not all southern students and draw from the entire country. Then there may be a school in the south like Centre College where I would expect more to be from the south. My D’s friend from home is heading there next year and I bet will be one of the only from VT! Not so at a place like Emory. So, if someone looks at Harvard, they’ll find the kids from all over the world. But if they look at some other eastern school, like Providence College, they’ll find much less diversity.</p>
<p>“Quite a few students are surprised to find that there are plenty of non-intellectuals at Ivy schools. People sometimes have the idea that everyone walks around talking metaphysics all day long; they have somehow missed the memo about how Ivy students can party and throw up with the best (or worst, LOL) of 'em.”</p>
<p>This is pretty funny and I agree!</p>
<p>“Actually, 40% of Harvard is from the east coast”
The East Coast is a big place and encompasses many states…New England, Mid Atlantic and Southeast. And that is just 40% and not a majority. I find the population at Harvard to be quite diverse compared to many less selective colleges.</p>
<p>Well, yes. This is land of the sarcastic, but there is no harm meant by our quipping.</p>
<p>Actually, you have a much better chance of being admitted to an east coast Ivy if you aren’t from the greater Boston or greater NY metro areas.</p>
<p>Emory is a perfect example of a school plagued by misconception. While the Northeast has known about Emory forever and actually comprises a good portion of its student body, many people on the West Coast have never heard of it, or if they have, they don’t know what state it’s in, or if they do, they think it may have been destroyed by Katrina because they don’t know where Georgia is, or if they do, they think anyone venturing into the city of Atlanta is asking to get shot. You and I know better, but with so many good or great state universities and an extensive community college system, many California kids don’t look outside their own state. So, no, they don’t do the research and they don’t gather the facts. Of course there are plenty of California kids who do, but this thread is about students who never considered Ivy colleges, not about the ones who did, and some of the reasons they don’t consider Ivy colleges lie in misconceptions.</p>
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<p>I wasn’t aiming for an apology; I wanted you to confirm that you meant what you said, and you did.</p>
<p>Just a few comments on this.</p>
<p>First of all, though I did not attend an Ivy, I did attend Stanford. Now granted that this was in the mid-'70s, and times were certainly different then, but I can’t imagine a less pretentious group than my peers in college. If anyone doubts that this is probably still true, check out the Stanford Band sometime? 
One of the great quotes from the book they sent to incoming freshmen was “There is something vaguely depressing about being in the same freshman dorm with 90 Student Body Presidents.” Everyone had something to brag about, so nobody did. </p>
<p>As others have said, there is undoubtedly some misperception of what the Ivy schools are really like, but by the same token, there is also the perception that, by definition, the education available at the Ivy schools is vastly superior to other colleges. That doesn’t necessarily follow. Sure, the top schools often attract great intellects and leaders in their fields. They certainly boast a powerful alumni base. However, at least at the undergraduate level, there are probably 50 schools around the country, public and private, that offer a comparable experience. Great intellect does not necessarily equate to great teaching ability, which is vitally important at the undergrad level.</p>
<p>Our son could pursue the Ivy schools, with a fair chance of success at a few of them, or Stanford, where the double legacy (my dad also went there), would help, but he simply is not interested. He has a great list of schools that will offer him a great education, and a super social and cultural experience. I’m all for it. </p>
<p>Graduate school is an entirely different issue, which I will fight another day.</p>
<p>sybbie: could be you have been in NYC so long you think it is normal. </p>
<p>I had a hard time with my last move from Arizona to NYC metro. A year after I moved I got a call from the State of Arizona. If I ever want to move back, I am supposed to spend at least one year in the mid West to decompress.</p>
<p>On a more serious note, I would agree that colleges have their own cultures and do not simply reflect the cultures of the surrounding area.</p>
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Even though he had the credentials for an ivy acceptance, my son refused to apply to ivy league schools for this reason. Now, maybe the students there are lovely and down-to-earth. I don’t know. But we do know that those few who attended ivy schools from our high school were usually insufferably arrogant and obsequious. He was afraid (perhaps wrongly so) that those schools would be full of students like the ivy-bound students that he knew from high school. I’m sure there are nice people everywhere, but you can’t blame a kid for going with his own experience.</p>
<p>On the financial side, we wouldn’t qualify for aid and couldn’t afford the price tag anyway.</p>
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There is definitely a perception that Stanford is indeed less pretentious than some other elite college and for some students, that’s part of the attraction to Stanford… the perception that at Stanford you’ll be hanging around with people in flip flops instead of tweed jackets, LOL.</p>
<p>Garland
Having spent over 25 years in NYC working,I obviously met tons of people I like a lot.On the whole however,charecterising New Yorkers as competitive,arrogant etal is accurate.Its the weather,the crowds,the explosion of incredibly talented,driven people who want to get ahead-its a rough place.I don’t mean that my agreement with the assessment was pejorative.I liked working in NYC a lot or else or else I wouldn’t have done it for so long.In fact I’ve been out for 2 years now and I am getting the itch to go back.
When my wife and I got married our first 6 years were spent living in NYC.Very happy great times.In fact we often talk about going back and living in NYC when the kids are grown</p>
<p>Garland; How are you doing? How have you been? </p>
<p>For heavens sake, make this thread go away!</p>
<p>BHG, just curious: why did you start, in your own words, “a really brazen thread” and then beg to have it disappear?</p>
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<p>As Pandora learned, once you open the box you have to deal with whatever comes out. You have no control over it and there is no going back to before you started it all.</p>
<p>Yup, starting a thread does not give anyone rights of ownership or the ability to control the content.</p>
<p>All the comments about cultures do seem to indicate how important this factor can be in selecting colleges. We often call it “fit.” I think teenagers are especially concerned about fitting in. They are often interested in remaining in the same geographical location and in a familiar culture. Diversity is highly overrated. In HS, cliques form and kids tend to remain in their groups. I have noticed the same thing at my D’s college. This is especially noticeable in the cafeterias. There is some mixing but generally students sit in groups clearly differentiated by racial and ethnic backgrounds. Apparently, there is also some religious groupings. On my D’s dorm floor, there is a large group of Southern Baptists who room together and in adjacent rooms. She is not too pleased about that because they made a lot of noise after quiet hours. I guess the “noise” is religious music.</p>
<p>I agree, Edad. Diversity is a buzzword that gets paid a lot of lip service, but really is not high on the list for most kids, despite what their parents might claim. My son had no desire to seek out a “diverse” setting. He gets all the diversity he feels he needs, I guess.</p>