Just checking to see if anyone else is “old-fashioned:”
I recently attended my child’s summer orientation program. As you would expect, every speaker introduced themselves to the parents prior to their presentation. Part of that introduction included their preference for pronoun use to describe them. “I use the pronouns she, her, hers.” I did not meet anyone whose selected pronouns didn’t match their outward appearance. With all due respect, this got me thinking about some of the craziness of gender identity issues. Will it be considered proper etiquette to introduce yourself to strangers by including your pronoun preferences? Will I be ostracized if I accidentally use a male pronoun for somebody who appears male but is electing to identify female? Not far-fetched: While my second child was in middle school, another child had detention for three days because he used “he” when speaking to an adult to describe a 13 year old boy who was identifying as a girl. Apparently, it upset “her” and “she” complained and the child was disciplined. Keep in mind, this child outwardly appeared very male. I agree some people may feel they have been born into the wrong sexual identity (as a biologist I think there may be a genetic component to this) but you remain a boy to me if you outwardly appear as a male. I cannot be blamed for not using the desired pronoun and I think it unfair for somebody to take offense. Call me “old-fashioned” but I will not be including my desired pronouns in my introductions to any sized group of people. I also don’t agree it is proper to push this type of introduction of pronoun use on to people if they don’t want to do so. Hopefully, nobody will try to force this upon my conservative child because I don’t think he will stay silent - he’s a little more outspoken than I am. Love to hear feedback from others on this and what you might do in different scenarios. Am I really “old-fashioned?”
Not sure if it’s old fashioned, but I also hope it doesn’t become the norm. Not because I don’t support the rights of people to choose to live in whatever way they’d like (not hurting others of course), it’s just a lot to remember.
I’m getting to the point where it’s asking a lot of me to remember the names of new people, asking to remember a nonstandard pronoun is unlikely. I should probably wear a badge that says something like “I support you and want you to live in a way that makes you happy. I will probably not call you by any nonstandard pronoun not because I am disapproving, I just have no short term memory cells remaining. Please understand I mean no harm. Peace.”
Some schools we looked at had Open House student participants indicate pronoun preferences – Sarah Lawrence, SUNY Purchase – but I don’t recall that at most of the schools we toured. It depends on if the student body is likely to have a lot of transgender students applying.
“It can get confusing, many colleges have pronoun guides/faqs, such as this one that are very helpful.”
I’m not confused at all. I understand, I’m supportive and I want people to be called whatever they want to be called… I just can’t remember reliably. Maybe my brain is full, maybe I’m losing my marbles, but if I’m on for example a college tour and “meeting” 30 people, I will be able to remember about half their names. Add in another factor like nonstandard pronoun to remember and that’s pushing it.
So I can easily envision a scenario where a nice person has introduced themselves with their name and preferred pronoun. I like that person, want to be supportive and not disapproving, but am unlikely to remember a nontraditional preferred pronoun. That’s my worry because I know many people ignore those nontraditional personal pronouns as a passive-aggressive way to show disapproval.
I’m not disapproving, I just have a sucky memory… wish there were a nice way to communicate this. Don’t lump me in with the geezers who don’t like what you stand for; I like you even if I call you the wrong thing.
It’s stupid. We need to stop getting offended at stupid things. Let’s get real old fashioned and just use the male pro-noun gong forward. “Problem” solved.
Watch “Nanette” on Netflix. Hannah Gadsby is a lesbian comedian who did a very personal powerful piece as her show (and yes, it was funny too except for the parts where you want to cry…). You may end up loving her and understand more in the meantime. She even speaks to your question–she has a masculine look and talks about her reaction on being taken for male rather than female (she’s very forgiving).
Are you “old-fashioned”? No. Most gays (small percentages despite media coverage) identify with the sex they were born. Transgender is a VERY small percentage of the population.
About this: “Not far-fetched: While my second child was in middle school, another child had detention for three days because he used “he” when speaking to an adult to describe a 13 year old boy who was identifying as a girl”
I have a friend with a trans-gender child. It’s been a long haul emotionally for everyone. EVERYONE slips up. That includes not only close friends but mom (especially) and dad too. It’s better now a year later but sometimes you still have to think before talking.
I can’t imagine giving a kid detention for that.
" I also don’t agree it is proper to push this type of introduction of pronoun use on to people if they don’t want to do so."
I agree.
I’m willing to try to use he/him/his, she/her/hers, they/them/theirs depending on what the person indicates they want… I might make mistakes, but usually people understand that others who are well-meaning make mistakes.
On the other hand, I’m going to wait until ze, ve, ne and the like make it into the language generally before I adopt them. Then I won’t have to learn them; I’ll just pick them up the way I pick up other neologisms.
And don’t get me started with “I don’t use pronouns.” Yes you do; “I” is a pronoun. And even if you didn’t use pronouns, so what? I do use pronouns, and while I will use my best efforts to use he, she or they for you as you prefer, I’m not willing to cripple my language to suit your ridiculous demand.
Doesn’t bother me in the least. If folks want to include their pronouns when they introduce themselves, how does that negatively affect me? It doesn’t. I’m happy to address people by whatever they want to be called. Just like a forgotten, mispronounced or misspelled names, folks should also feel free to correct someone who forgets and uses the wrong pronouns. No biggie.
I don’t think it’s a ridiculous demand to be referred to as you would prefer. When someone actually states their preference I hope that I’d accommodate their wishes.
What is ridiculous is asking people who DON’T care to state a preference. I don’t need to get up in front of a group and say (effectively): “I’m a guy/girl, gay, trans, undetermined, still “thinking about it”…”
Hopefully what I have to say is more important than sexual/gender orientation. That IS after all what we’ve been working on all these years (at least I hope!)
“I’m not willing to cripple my language to suit your ridiculous demand.”
I bet quite a few people complained about the same when Ms. was working its way into common language. Language is constantly chaining and morphing. We add new words all the time.
It’s a ridiculous demand that I not use pronouns at all when referring to someone. We have pronouns in English, and in every other language I’ve ever heard of, for a reason. And, again, “I don’t use pronouns” is a self-refuting sentence, and so is “I don’t use pronouns for myself.”
@“Cardinal Fang” --didn’t see NO pronouns at all as part of the original scenario. In that case, I’d agree.
Although “Hey, YOU!” generally works.
After that …hmm…it would be “M? wants to do such and such…M? thinks this”
I cannot believe a school gave 3 days detention for calling a physical male ‘he’. If that had been my child I would have found another school. A middle school child! That is abuse and intimidation.
@TatinG – I don’t think it’s actually abuse and intimidation.
I think it’s ignorance of a very complex situation. It’s a symptom of growing pains in our society.
This has gone way to far. Agree @TatinG
I recently read an article where the University of Minnesota is considering punishment up to expulsion of a student or firing of a professor for using the wrong pronoun. How exactly would you feel if you got the call that your child was being expelled for using a wrong pronoun.
If someone has a strong preference then state it but for everyone to introduce themselves with gender pronoun preferences is crazy.
Nor did I, but it is a demand that some make, and if you look back you’ll see that “no pronouns at all” is what I was referring to when I said I wouldn’t cripple my language. I’ll make my best effort to use the pronouns the person prefers (and I suppose I’d try ve or ze if I ever met someone who wanted those pronouns, to be honest) but I am not willing to avoid pronouns entirely when speaking of a person. It’s way too hard, way too awkward.
