iaparent: "This weekend I was talking with my son who just finished his first year at a state flagship and asked him about announcing preferred pronouns and if it comes up. Little did I know the can of worms I was opening up. His opinion is it is an incredible waste of time, over and over again on campus.
He said from day one any new class, campus group, a new member joining a group, etc. the process had to be done. In the dorm everyone was required to post on their door their preferred pronoun. Each class began with introductions around the room with preferred pronoun. Every time someone new joined a class, guest speaker, etc. the whole group had to reintroduce themselves with preferred pronoun. All email through the university system had to include the senders preferred pronoun. Any deviation from the above subjected the parties to potential punishment.
Someone mentioned above the waste of time for a very small % of the population and I agree (as does my 19 y/o son). To waste expensive class time to repeatedly cater to a small group, but not other groups, seems ridiculous. If the wrong pronoun is used either correct the speaker or don’t. To expect a full introduction around a preference each time someone new is introduced seems like someone looking for a reason to find fault.
I detest close talkers and crippling hand shakers. Should I expect that in each new situation it should be noted to the group that I prefer a 2 foot boundary when talking and expect it to be followed? This is my preference and should be given just as much credence as the pronoun someone would prefer. "
Agree. An incredible waste of class time, and punitive to boot. Ridiculous.
For those that don’t want to use they as a singular, you really don’t have to, just use the work arounds, like referring to the person by their name or job title or other descriptive.
As for the other burning issue, how much time is really wasted? If you are already introducing yourself by name to add a quick, “call me he, she or they” adds about a nanosecond to the intro.
I do remember when my older son was a baby I occasionally dressed him in a pink shirt - it was a hand me down - and it wasn’t super feminine. Think pink and white stripes. People always, always assumed he was girl when he wore that shirt. It always surprised me how much people needed to assign a gender to a baby.
In IAparents case, it sounds like a lot of time. If I want to know your preferred gender pronoun ( or your marital status, sexual identity, or any other personal info), I will ask. Otherwise, your first or last name is sufficient for me.
Whaddaya mean “we”? I have singular “they” naturally in my dialect, and had it before I learned that some individuals want to be referred to in a genderless way. I hate “I could care less” though.
I think my son’s point was that in the past a guest speaker would not necessitate introductions all around however with this focus on pronouns the process is repeated anytime their is a new person in the room, for fear of offending. Yes if there are going to be introductions anyway it doesn’t add much but to do 20 -25 introductions does waste time.
His other point was that many were not willing to add the “My preferred pronoun is …” to their email signature and as such had to remember to add it each time a university student or employee was emailed or face potential reprisal. His opinion was there are sometimes an email is sent where that type of signature could cause damage (for either side of the gender spectrum, rightly or wrongly) so it was better not to include it in the signature. As much as we want to believe the world is more enlightened around these issues it is not and sending that email signature to a potential employer, family member, business, etc. could flag the email negatively.
My son has no problem if someone wants to volunteer their preferred pronoun (when appropriate) but to mandate it across a 60,000+ population of a university is overkill. Does the university really need to mandate that the 100+ member football team sit down and do individual introductions when an alum comes back to give a motivational speech to the team.
I love the idea that the football team would have to do personal introductions and pronoun preferences on a regular basis. Maybe before a game both teams should line up at midfield and tell each other their preferred pronouns. That alone could make the whole pronoun thing worthwhile.
The cheerleaders could help, too:
Mikey, Mikey, no excuses!
“He” and “him” are the pronouns he uses!
Cis-boom-bah!
“Does the university really need to mandate that the 100+ member football team sit down and do individual introductions when an alum comes back to give a motivational speech to the team.”
"remember to add it each time a university student or employee was emailed or face potential reprisal. "
I have not read all the comments so please forgive me if someone else has posted something like this. I coordinate the Senior Nutrition Program for our area both for home bound seniors and for on-site luncheons. I must maintain intake forms for each client that are updated quarterly. The new 2018-19 form has been updated to include recent State of Calif. requirements: “The Gay Bisexual and Transgender Disparities Reduction Act of 2016 (AB 959)
The State of CA requires that we ask you some demographic questions followed by three questions under the new CA State AB 959 Law, the Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Disparities Reduction Act of 2016”. The new form includes the following section:
What was your sex at birth?
☐ Female ☐ Male ☐ Decline to State
What is your Gender? ☐ Female ☐ Male ☐ Transgender Female to Male ☐ Transgender Male to Female
☐ Genderqueer/Gender Non-binary ☐ Decline to State ☐ Not listed, please specify:
How do you describe your sexual orientation or sexual identity?
☐ Straight/Heterosexual ☐ Bisexual ☐ Gay/Lesbian/Same-Gender Loving
☐ Questioning/Unsure ☐ Decline to State ☐ Not listed, please specify
While “senior” is defined as over age 60 (lol), the majority of my clients are 75-100 years. This is a group for whom sexual orientation was just not discussed. Some of them have spent entire lives hiding their sexual orientation in order to avoid being ostracized. And on the flip side, many who are straight are outright insulted if anyone questions their orientation. Out of almost 200 clients, I only have 1 who is openly gay. When I go through this new form with my clients, many become embarrassed or just dismiss the question. Quite a few comment that it is stupid or that it is nobody’s business ( I agree with that last comment). Several have become quite angry and defiant about the question. I at first refused to ask the question, not because I am uncomfortable with the material, but because I feel it is a very personal and intrusive question. I spend quite a bit of time getting to know new clients and try to find out more about them only so that I can help them find new resources that may be helpful to them. If they feel comfortable enough with me to offer information, great. Unfortunately, I am now required to ask the questions because I risk losing Grant funding if I don’t. I always preface it by saying they may decline to answer without fear of losing their meals. While I applaud the new movement towards inclusiveness of all, I think that we may have gone overboard in not recognizing that not all demographics are comfortable with this newer trend.
It is not speculation and conjecture, the preferred pronoun must be on every email sent to a university member if sent through the university email account and yes you can be called to explain why you did not identify your pronoun. Not sure what punishments there are but there are questions to answer.
The football example is a bit facetious on my part however if the coaches were to follow the university policy to the letter, it is required. Any time a new individual is introduced into a group (classroom, club, dorm, etc.) each member must be introduced along with their preferred pronoun. I’m quite certain the football team is cohesive and private enough to forego this process but it would be in violation of university policy.
So again more and more are going toward the punitive for using the wrong pronoun. Not fear mongering, just facing a reality as it becomes more common place.
Good luck, @takeitallin. I can’t believe the audacity of California in asking those questions for what sounds like a meals on wheels type program. The recipients are elderly, housebound, human and hungry. What further info is truly required? Maybe age, and special dietary needs ( low salt or whatever). Otherwise, just not appropriate to ask those questions at any age. The extremists on both sides are not helpful.
You hit the nail on the head here. Completely insane. I can only imagine that age group laughing out loud at such nonsensical questions, especially for this purpose. They are hungry? Take them some FOOD. Keep all your social justice stuff out of that transaction. I can even imagine someone becoming offended being asked, “What was your sex at birth”? Really? That could be very hurtful to someone who already feels the outside elderly package no longer matches the inside, like others can’t even tell. And what kind of sex they want to have? Seriously? Most elderly people who need food delivered to them would just make some joke about vaguely remembering sex (though I do realize there are always some exceptions in that age group).
Yes, I did deliver Meals on Wheels. Believe me, how you addressed them was the very least of their concerns.
Yup. That’s my State. Since we are running so smoothing and financially sound in all other departments we like to take the road less traveled and pave it with the extra funds. Yes - that is sarcasm.
So, the basic point on the pronoun issue is that how one would like to be addressed is extremely important. How about this, every teacher in every classroom needs to be willing and able to address each and every student by their desired personal pronoun. In the case of my kids that would be 4 different names, two of which cause fits in the mouths of those who did not grow up with a back ground in a specific language. Oh, and if you mispronounce the personal pronoun (name) then there will be a requirement to take a diversity in language course. It would be outright disrespect if someone can not roll the ‘R’ appropriately.
Of course, each individual has the option to be addressed differently by different people. Buddies get to use a different name than professors etc. Could we have a sign on the dorm room which explains all of this.
About the only time I torture someone by insisting on the correct full pronunciation of my name is if they are an uninvited telemarketer bugging me with yet another annoying phone call.
Sometimes, what starts as a reasonable and good idea veers into the silly and absurd with a little nudge from those who have an axe to grind - or a need to be the most special in a room.
I agree that those questions are totally inappropriate and out of bounds. Age and special dietary needs. What do you feed gay people and trans people special food? Some in our country have completely lost their marbles. I am no where near 80 and I would refuse to answer the questions and would find it intrusive and not necessary…I also find colleges instituting practices and administrating them at some unknown cost unnecessary and downright stupid for a tiny, tiny, fraction of kids. If it is important to you because your name isn’t gender specific or you aren’t gender specific tell your profs. But for the 97+% where it is name obvious and visually obvious it is a totally unnecessary exercise.
AB 959: “This bill would extend the right to make choices and have those choices respected to consumers’ authorized representatives. The bill would require regional centers to provide information to a consumer or his or her parents, legal guardian, conservator, or authorized representative in a manner that is culturally and linguistically appropriate, as specified.”
I would hazard the guess that these questions are being asked in part to ensure that services are being provided equally. You may not think it makes sense to determine how a service recipient wants to be addressed; a gay or transgender elder [yes, we do have those] might disagree. And please note the “decline to state” option for each question.
I am offended by the tone of this thread. Much of it, in my opinion, demonstrates a lack of concern for a serious issue and is not worthy of what I have always viewed until now as a caring and inclusive CC community.
So apparently you feel prioritizing transgender over the hungry elderly is a reasonable solution. I am very inclusive to all and realize it’s tricky but I don’t choose to elevate certain groups over others. We are ALL equal and deserving.
@bhs1978 : Was that meant for me? How you get that from what I wrote is … baffling. My point was that I think California IS trying to make sure that EVERYONE has equal access to this service. Does that help?
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
OK, we seem to have moved past the OP’s question, which was "Am I really “old-fashioned?” and the conversation has devolved into “is it better or worse to…” Since CC is not a debate society, I am closing this thread.