The things that Money did to those children are unspeakable.
The psychologist was JOHN Money; the child was DAVID Reimer [born Bruce].
The word you is both singular and plural. For that matter, the word you encompasses all genders, at least in English.
@roycroftmom 99% is way, way too high for college students. Maybe our age group but not 18-22 yos. And not just because some are trans. Someone earlier recommended the Hannah Gadsby show “Nannette.” I do, too.
At my university, it’s literally just AT ORIENTATION. I just don’t see the harm in being inclusive!
I have a hard time believing that anyone would want to become trans because they saw a They/Them on a name tag. Yes, what fun! Opening yourself up to years of harassment, exclusion, and sometimes violence, all for a trend! Must be part of that agenda we all keep worrying about.
@prezbucky ze/zir pronouns were mentioned earlier in this thread. As I recall, most of the contexts in which they were mentioned had to do with people either refusing to use them or saying they/their pronouns were more commonly preferred.
Well, per Wikipedia, doctors seem to think the number could not be more than 1.7 percent at the outside, and likely less. So apparently at least 97% of the population does not experience this. No particular reason to believe college students are more likely than non college students. Seems like the identification issue occurs from birth, or possibly manifests at puberty, but since most college students are at least 18, they should be past puberty. In any event, every single middle and high school I know has students identify as trans. Since many of these schools are quite small, either the doctors are wrong or something else is going on.
And I always rely on Wikipedia for my facts. Not.
Something else is going on. I think the Atlantic article did a pretty good job laying it all out.
@prezbucky
You are wrong. (gotcha)
The above sentence is a correct usage of “you” as singular with the verb “are” also being singular.
Regardless of people’s individual preferences, it is likely that “they” being used as a singular form will win out. Language usually evolves rather than introducing a completely new word.
“Ms” was obviously built on the already existing honorifics and the pronunciation was already in use at least in Southern areas. Likewise, “they” is already sometimes used as a generic singular, as @“Cardinal Fang” so aptly showed. Without ever thinking about it, I would answer those Q’s exactly as in Cardinal Fang’s examples.
In addition, young people use “they” in this new way and they are the ones carrying us into the future.
Yes, kombucha is probably me living in an extremely liberal bubble 
However, transgender issues have been mentioned in every major media (with different emphasis depending on their politics), so even if people are not encountering them within their local communities, they are likely to hear about these issues anyway.
Our Costco carries 2-3 types of kombucha. Just saying.
What I took from the Atlantic article is that we are on the far side of a pendulum swing when it comes to addressing gender identification issues. And yes, the visibility of the issue has made it trendy among adolescents.
Heck in DS HS it was trendy to be on medication to address psychiatric issues. The young guys would discuss their diagnosis, what their current medication regiment was and who were the cool councilors in the area. Yes, it was cool to be somewhat mentally ill. It’s not too far a stretch to see where being gender questioning raises one’s social status in HS. In areas of the country where it’s not only accepted, but makes one a member of an exclusive club, even questioning if maybe, just maybe, we are taking a bit to aggressive of an approach to a problem which may resolve itself, leads to social shunning. Or worse, a requirement to undergo the appropriate course of training until you see things ‘the right way’.
Clearly no one wants to miss a distress signal sent by our young people. We are, hopefully, past the stage of addressing their concerns, pains, discomfort and challenges with a simple ‘suck it up, life is hard’. But I think we have gone to far to the other extreme.
As for the teacher with the gender fluidity which changes daily or hourly. Sorry dear they, get the heck over thyself. Really, if this was a non gender fluid person who - say - was undergoing a difficult relationship phase, would we accept them coming in from recess with a ‘call me XYZ because I now like my partner’. only to return after lunch and find the same person now asking to be addressed as ABC - because the lunch conversation with partner went bad and they are now not a couple. Really. That they is in a classroom to work out their own problems and make a big deal about them selves. Oh - look at me - I have this unique situation and everyone needs to make sure I feel comfortable. Work out your issues on your own time, don’t bring them into the classroom. Just teach.
Are we really discussing the kombucha in the context of gender identity and transgender issues?! BTW, I would not consider kombucha a fad. If it is one, it’s been around for quite awhile now. I’d say it was a new fad at least 5 years ago and is now pretty mainstream and I don’t live in a hippie/hipster area. I don’t think fermented food/drinks are going to disappear anytime soon. That said, I think the topic of gender identity deserves some attention without being called a fad. The gay rights movement became more prominent and less hidden a few decades ago. I wouldn’t consider that a fad. I don’t see why this issue should be treated any differently.
The idea that transgender people are following a fad loses credibility when kinnars, Two-Spirit, tritiya-prakrti, and quariwarmi are considered.
Not a fad but I am on the side that believes kids try personas on during the teen years before they become fully formed. I think it is important that for those with such a teen to be atuned but I don’t think that is the same as to a need everyone around teens or even young adults to bend over backwards or to be wary of misgendering them with a misplaced pronoun for fear of being vilified for a genuine error.
I grew up in the era where Ms was just starting to be used and many persons objected to its usage on the opinion that it was pandering to feminism. I always looked at it as merely convenient. Mr. Implies a man married or unmarried, Mrs. and Miss were for married and unmarried women. Much of the time when communicating with women I simply didn’t know their marital status and in most cases it wasn’t important when communicating with them. The prefix was convenient. I think the use of pronouns is somewhat different. Because we are attempting to not only learn new pronouns, learn the persons preference and finally remember each persons preference they make communication more difficult not easier. Perhaps in 20 years when we have internalized rules and methods for proper usage this will be like Ms is for us today. i think most people are going to need to be convinced it’s necessary.
This weekend I was talking with my son who just finished his first year at a state flagship and asked him about announcing preferred pronouns and if it comes up. Little did I know the can of worms I was opening up. His opinion is it is an incredible waste of time, over and over again on campus.
He said from day one any new class, campus group, a new member joining a group, etc. the process had to be done. In the dorm everyone was required to post on their door their preferred pronoun. Each class began with introductions around the room with preferred pronoun. Every time someone new joined a class, guest speaker, etc. the whole group had to reintroduce themselves with preferred pronoun. All email through the university system had to include the senders preferred pronoun. Any deviation from the above subjected the parties to potential punishment.
Someone mentioned above the waste of time for a very small % of the population and I agree (as does my 19 y/o son). To waste expensive class time to repeatedly cater to a small group, but not other groups, seems ridiculous. If the wrong pronoun is used either correct the speaker or don’t. To expect a full introduction around a preference each time someone new is introduced seems like someone looking for a reason to find fault.
I detest close talkers and crippling hand shakers. Should I expect that in each new situation it should be noted to the group that I prefer a 2 foot boundary when talking and expect it to be followed? This is my preference and should be given just as much credence as the pronoun someone would prefer.
There is a difference between a wide spread ‘fad’ and a behavior adolescents adopt because it identifies them as part of a small, but very special, group. We’ve had discussions here about the undeveloped brains. We’ve had discussions on whether or not those under 25 are really, truly capable of making fully informed decisions because supposedly the part of the brain which calculates and assess long term consequences is not yet fully formed. The same brains that shouldn’t be held to an adult standard are presented with option that, as per the Atlantic article, some may just try on for size.
So, now we encourage kids (HS, college) to question something as basic as their own gender identity. A question 97% ( or 97.5% or 98.2% - the point being it IS a very small portion) has not spent anytime agonizing over, because they (as in the plural they) simply know their gender identity.
And, at least in my area, there is without a doubt a specialness assigned to those who have identified as questioning, confused, fluid etc. If you are the subject of study, a member of a small club, a political rallying point, yes you are special. In some places, not the ‘good’ kind of special, in others, an almost exhalted kind of special.
How do we help the very small minority who is struggling in a manner that is supportive, accepting and sensitive but also includes common sense? I don’t have the solution. But making the pronoun issue a special called out portion of orientation, making it part the beginning of a class, making it a rallying cry which identifies the ‘others’ as either putzes for not jumping on board or making the ‘other’ an elevated moral being for jumping onboard is just another way of sectioning us out into smaller and smaller groups.
Until this point, I can honestly say that none of the few trans people with whom I have ever interacted on a regular basis had any interest in nonbinary pronouns. However, this weekend I was talking on the phone with my son and daughter-in-law, and I realized they were using “they” to refer to a close friend of theirs whom I have met lots of times over the years, whom I like a lot, and who has always presented to me as a cis, straight woman with short hair who dislikes girly clothes. Apparently, this friend has used “they” etc. for a while privately, but has recently gotten more insistent on letting others know that preference and enforcing its public use. Their professional interests have bent in this direction, too, and they have a book slated for publication next year on a topic involving gender theory and popular culture. So I guess it’s creeping into my life.
I do think the interest in gender-neutral pronouns comes from a frame of mind that is radically different from mine. I don’t have any problem understanding gender dysphoria or gender fluidity. But I have a problem understanding why anyone should expect that language would or could represent them perfectly, in this or in any other respect.
"For those who object to the singular they, how do you rephrase this?
First person: My doctor called me about the X-ray.
Friend who doesn’t know the gender of the doctor: What did they say?
or this one?
Person: My cousin just gave me $5000.
Friend: Why did they give you the money? That was nice of them.
I probably would reply something along the lines of:
Friend who doesn’t know the gender of the doctor: “What did the the doctor say?”
Person: My cousin just gave me $5000.
Friend: “Why did your cousin give you the money? That was nice.”
I mean no disrespect to anyone and certainly have no desire to call or refer to anyone by the wrong pronoun, but I find it impossible to regard “they” as anything but plural. Thus, when I hear it being (mis)used in the singular a loud “Bad Grammar!” gong goes off inside my head. For that reason I’ve become fairly dexterous at replying as I suggest above - when the noun is singular but the gender is uncertain I often use the noun instead of the pronoun, or if that is too awkward or repetitive, just leave both out and have it be implied by the structure of the sentence.
Not always an ideal solution, but it avoids offending the listener by misidentifying gender and avoids offending me by not requiring me to using bad grammar.