<p>Maybe I just woke up cynical this morning, but this is the second thread I’ve read today that doesn’t quite ring true (NSM tagged the other). How could a dad who graduated from Macalester not realize the opportunities that small LACs offer to undergrad science majors? There are so many questions posed by the OP that I have to wonder what they DID ask when it was crucial to be engaged in the process, not after the fact. ANd the question seems to have sequed from “how do I help my s. cope” to “how do I draw up a list for my younger child”. You’ve been through the process and don’t know what a ‘match school’ is; interested enough to have read the WSJ articles ‘for years’ but just now finding CC? It’s all possible, I suppose, and I apologize if the story is legit.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t assume that the coasts have good college advising.
I know that <cough> my daughters high school, had a teacher that was also the college advisor, and frankly while many did hire an advisor, some just winged it.
Her sisters public school, while one of the best in the state also has counselors who may change every year ( this year- her junior year- she will again have abrand new counselor- who isn’t even hired yet):p</cough></p>
<p>I also was wondering about Mac- it is an excellent school
in fact one professor at the Univ of Wa who is currently heading up research on BEC Bose Einstein Condensate
sent one of his sons to Mac. great school- great city.</p>
<p>Lefthandofdog. Yes, this is true. Our public school had much more confidence than we had that our son would get into one of his choices and we were swayed by them. My husband felt the U was better for sciences than Macalester. He’s donated to Macalester for years and likes the place, but felt very strongly (and still does) that they are not up to the U of M in science. And yes, as people have responded and talked about match schools, I’d like to know how to find these for our daughter and for our son if he needs to transfer.</p>
<p>My husband and I are very, very impressed with the U of M. I just want to be better prepared this coming year if our son is not adjusting and desires a transfer. My son was interested in the Caltech, MIT, U Chicago schools not only for their prestige, but for the academic climate. This is one thing that the U of M does not have. As a Big Ten grad myself, I know all about the big sports/drinking/social climate at a big school like the U of M. This could be a major turnoff for our son. If it is, I want to have better preparation than I had last time.</p>
<p>i think there have been threads complaining about school college advising from people from al different types of schools. among friends, i think complaining about the college advising is much more prevalent than talking about counselling successes. maybe that’s why so many of us parents end up doing our own research because we just dont feel like we can rely on a school gc.</p>
<p>if it makes you feel any better, on the east coast we moan about how the fact that there are so many applicants from here makes it so much harder on our kids. truth is, admission is getting harder and harder all over – i don’t think anyone or any region really has the definitive answer.</p>
<p>Our son just came home and when I told him what I was doing, I asked him if he planned to drop his malaise and work hard at the U of M and he said he would work hard. If he follows through on that, I know he’ll be fine.</p>
<p>Peege please correct me if I’ve missed something and forgive any wrong assumptions, I am really trying to understand. It appears that getting into an Ivy was extremely important for your son based both on his college list and his disappointment. He is a great student, so he knows the importance of homework. Yet, no offence, but he seems amazingly ignorant and unprepared for the admission process, in other words he has not done his homework. You did not know what the matches are - did he know this? Why did he apply for so many colleges he did not even like? Did he spend any time gathering information about colleges he applied into, was he merely curious, did he change his mind later? Did he take it for granted that he’ll get into some Ivy, did he research his chances at all? I am sure that your son was not overtly ambitious, he was merely uneducated about the process. He did not have a good GC and this is unfortunate, but a lot of information is freely available from books, family friends, web, peers etc. I really wish you found this site earlier </p>
<p>He knew that many colleges of his choice specifically require SAT II in science - he might have guessed that they do it for a reason. Yet, he was completely surprised to discover organic chem questions on the SATII test? So, he has never looked at a single practice test, he did not even know what the test was about? He is an amazingly gifted student and evidently is able to prepare for a test in a single day, yet he did not take the trouble to prepare? Was he not motivated enough, lazy, overconfident? Don’t you think this could be a factor in college adcom decisions? Sure colleges look for gifted kids, but they also look for kids with strong work habits, with motivation and with ability to organize themselves amongst many other qualities. </p>
<p>Sorry if I brought you down, this really was not my intention and I am sure your son is an amazing kid. I am glad he is recovering and sure he’ll be just fine. But I was really disappointed reading your story. This reminds me of some of my friends who let their kids drive their admission process without much insight. One girl ended up registering for two SAT II tests at the test center where one of the tests was not even offered on that day. Due to a poor planning, this was her first and her last chance to take both tests before application deadline, so she ended up taking another SAT II test in different subject, completely unprepared. I hear about kids missing deadlines, starting to choose colleges and working on college applications in the fall of a senior year, failing to request recommendation letters… I am very far from being a perfectionist, but for all four years of extremely hard work (as you correctly pointed out) can these kids afford to loose points on silly mistakes due to extremely poor planning or ignorance? Is this worth it?</p>
<p>May be some kids are just not mature enough to be in charge, so do we have to step back or be helicopter parents? Where to draw a line? Should the kids be allowed to learn from their own mistakes and to what extent? How much help should we offer (and the process is so far from easy - can an average student even handle this by himself?). May be taking a gap year IS a solution allowing kids to mature. This is not at all about life or death choices, not about getting into a selective college. but about credit and recognition, about getting what they deserve, about reward for their time and effort, about fully realizing their potential and making the best of the situation, about fulfilling the dream.</p>
<p>Peege, kids from around here who like the MIT, Caltech, Chicago type schools usually look at and apply to: (use your judgement)
RPI, Case, BU, Arizona, Rochester, U Michigan, Hopkins, Olin. There’s a range of selectivity here… Case is usually a match/safety for this type of kid whereas Hopkins is a reach (but less reachy than Cal Tech if that makes sense.) Some are stronger in engineering than in physics, but unless your son has already identified a clear interest in a particular subject, all should do the trick. (Arizona for Astronomy… Olin more for engineering. etc.)</p>
<p>If he’s learned to like learning for its own sake (and he almost certainly has - few kids can take the long-term view and forsake immediate gratification by working 4+ years just for the “prize” of “the best college” - so I suspect he’s definitely “hooked” on learning), and he’s self-motivated (as it sounds like he’s been throughout high school) - he’ll do fine at Minnesota.</p>
<p>Peege:</p>
<p>It’s great that your son has a good attitude as he gets ready to attend U of MN. It’s way too early to think about transferring right now. Transfer applications are usually due some time in the spring; by then, he will have had a chance to see how well he fits in at U of MN, how good the department is and how much support he is getting. He will also have had a first semester record in case he still wishes to transfer. So there is plenty of time to relax. Don’t look back–it’s futile. Don’t look to next year–it’s premature. Enjoy the moment.</p>
<p>I can understand how the OP’s son feels a bit let down. Probably lots of kids were in the same boat (rejected by top schools) but they may have had some other schools (besides the state U) to choose from. My son (a rising senior) is having a hard time coming up with safeties because he feels the schools I’m suggesting are too easy - that’s where classmates who didn’t work hard go. At first he felt I didn’t have confidence in him but I’ve been telling him about Andi & others in his situation. I think he’s finally listening & understanding how tough the competition is. </p>
<p>Many kids here use Rutgers as their safety but my son hated the idea coz so many of his classmates go there. He recently did some research into the Bio/Neurobio program and found a top researcher on the faculty. Reading about his research in our newspaper also made him appreciate some of the opportunities there. Unfortunately he isn’t thrilled with the campus (nor are we) but he added it to his list. I just hope he can come up with a few other match/safeties.</p>
<p>It’s just hard to figure out what are real safety and match schools for kids with top stats. Even when the kids “match up”, these schools must still be considered complete reaches.</p>
<p>Replying to BTM: My husband and I are in the anti-helicopter parent group which probably explains why we didn’t do a lot of the things you mentioned (or rather get our son to do them). As I said, this was his goal, not ours. We were/are not pushy parents. We do not require our son to study. We do not limit his TV/recreational activities. We do not program his extra curricular day. We do not check any of his homework, etc. We give him a tremendous amount of autonomy.</p>
<p>We do try to advise him, but it is just that–advice. He is gifted in Math and I advised him for years to join the Math team, but he chose to ignore the advice. We advised him to use some preparation for the SAT II also, which he ignored. There are other things we advised that he ignored too. Like many bright kids, there is a failure of arrogance on his part. I don’t want to convey the idea that he is perfect. If he had followed some of our advice, I have no doubt he might have improved his odds. Our younger child follows our advice, which makes it easier. </p>
<p>However even without following our counsel, he was extremely qualified and is dealing with his disappointment. I think it’s a bit like the grieving process…denial, anger, etc. </p>
<p>For me, it’s been encouraging to find parents who agree that he will find a lot to offer at the U of M. It’s also been great to hear from him that he is prepared to work hard once again (I’ve been asking him this on and off all summer and only got a response today). And it’s also helpful to gather information for transferring if we need to do that.</p>
<p>With all the scholarship money he would forfeit by going with a gap year, I don’t think that’s a really good idea for him. For example the National Merit Scholarship is only good if you start that year.</p>
<p>Thanks for your response.</p>
<p>Pegee, majoring in physics anywhere is a good wake up call for kids who don’t like to take advice. It’s a bit of a jump into the deep end… regardless of how thorough the HS preparation was. Your son will quickly learn how to go to professors for help; use TA’s to review problem sets; lean on his advisor for course selection and how to balance heavily quant classes with ones that give him a bit of a breather, etc.</p>
<p>Sounds like he’s got a fun, challenging year ahead of him!</p>
<p>Minnesota is a good school. And he has a good chance of getting a high GPA and getting into a good grad school–which is MUCH more valuable.</p>
<p>Re: btm in post 86: lots of kids in Minnesota are that ignorant about the selective college admission process, because lots of teachers and counselors in public high schools in Minnesota are that ignorant. I had a completely useless, no, worse than useless, counselor when I was in high school in Minnesota. The best thing that parents can do in lots of parts of the country is engage in self-help. And they may not realize how much they need self-help until they discover a Web site like this.</p>
<p>It seems to me a case of really bad college application planning and arrogance. You felt that he is too qualified. If your son wanted to major in Physics, why in the world did he take SATII in chemistry (and scored really low) instead? As a physicist, I would like to caution you and him: if he did not feel comfortable with SAT II Physics test, physics might not be his area to start with. If he put physics as a tentative major on his application, top colleges expected him to take Math IIc and Physics and get 800 on both plus 800 on a history/literature as well.</p>
<p>I’ve got to log out, but will check this tomorrow. Thank you again to the many people who replied with helpful information. This was great.</p>
<p>btm: I will answer some for the poster, if I may. Here in the midwest, we tend to think about college differently. Many, many students apply to state schools or attend LACs in the midwest region. It is not common for midwest students to apply to Ivy League schools. In fact, it is often seen as strange for families to send kids to private out of state schools when there are so many lower cost state schools to choose from in the region. </p>
<p>Midwest students don’t usually take the SAT, and even fewer bother with SAT IIs. High schools, even really good ones, don’t always have the information about these tests or how to advise kids about taking them. In addition, test prep is not particularly common in this part of the country. There are not many independent college counselors. (I haven’t found a one in my city - Madison.) The idea of “packaging” an applicant is also a rather foreign concept as well. I am not making excuses for anyone, it is just a bit of a different culture here. </p>
<p>Peege - your story makes perfect sense to me. Midwest kids certainly get admitted to high end colleges all the time, and, to be honest, I am surprised by the waitlists at Northwestern and Chicago. But I am not at all surprised that this whole process seems a bit of a puzzle to you. My advise for you regarding your younger son is to keep reading this board, but learn to liberally sift what you read. There is a lot of inaccurate and spurious information here, but there is some great stuff here as well. There are a number of posters who will be able to help you. Hang in there.</p>
<p>And finally, your son will be fine. He will either find a way to fit in at UM or he will decide to transfer. But he is bright and talented and with a reasonable amount of determination, he will be very successful.</p>
<p>To be frank, it doesn’t sound like your son was as qualified as your original post made him sound. With the info you later add it becomes more clear that he didn’t have a chance at most of his schools. Applying to Caltech for physics without a physics SATII and a low chem one is just unheard of. SATIIs are a piece of cake for top students. That he didn’t go to a community college ot take online classes when his school didn’t offer AP science is also huge. He could have applied to RSI and other free summer programs as well.</p>
<p>I think an important lesson here is that the kids getting in to the top schools have a history of going above and beyond what the local high school offers. Those who truly love learning have many ways beyond school to stretch. I would advise your son that shining at U of M or anywhere is going to mean being proactive in seeking opportunities.</p>
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<p>I’m now sure what high school he went to, and one thing he was up against is that one of his classmates did go to RSI last summer. He was from an exceptionally strong graduating class at an exceptionally strong high school (but, all the same, a high school with underwhelming college application counseling), so he had more work to do than most to stand out in his local context.</p>
<p>FWIW, I believe that it serves little purpose to dissect the past and find faults in the guidance the student obtained. It is possible that he -or his advisers- misjudged the difficiulty or the odds of landing a spot at a highly selective school. That is just the way it works, and it helps to think about the 30,000 valedictorians or thousands of quasi-perfect SAT scorers who are left with the inability to understand why they were not chosen. Single digit admission rates are simply … brutal. </p>
<p>What is important is to move forward and avoid getting caught in a web of unwarranted optimism. Agreeing to work hard --and maybe demonstrate that the outcome was a bit harsh-- is a great step in the right direction. It is, however, easier to recommend setting aside the past and the disappointment than to do it. </p>
<p>Best wishes for continuing success at UofMN.</p>