@Sybylla We are talking St Andrews in Scotland. To some Scottish students 30k to Oxbridge vs free St/A’s/Edin/Glasgow is a deal breaker what is so difficult to understand. What you would do is irrelevant, it happens.
@collegemom The class system in the UK is a disease and access to elite universities is a symptom. It is absolutely true that many able working class kids don’t apply often through ignorance of the process and genuine discouragement either from parents, siblings and even teachers. Often they are given bad advice on what “A” levels to study, if you want to read Maths at Oxford you will need Maths, Further maths and/or Physics. If your A levels are Maths, Psychology and Biology your odds of admission are probably dealt a death blow. It could be as heartbreakingly simple as Oxbridge is for posh kids.
The independent schools in the UK have a huge advantage, some have been sending kids to Oxbridge for centuries, kids are coached on entrance exams and have confidence in interviews, they are expected to apply and they expect to gain admission. The likes of Eton and Harrow inundate kids to Oxbridge like the Tommies going over the top in WW!.. most will fail many succeed, but you have to apply. I read a statistic recently more kids from the top 8 independent schools go to Oxbridge than 2000 state schools combined. I wish I knew what the answer was other than continue to widen access through outreach and encouragement. In the meantime there are many many able kids at places other than Oxbridge for a variety of reasons as I have alluded to in previous posts…
As a student currently at St Andrews, I know of at least two people who turned down Oxbridge for St Andrews and one who transferred from Cambridge Medicine to St Andrews Economics. The first is a German studying Philosophy and German who did not get a bursary she applied for at Oxford and the second is an English student who realised that she did not want to specialise into a subject so soon.
Every student chooses a University for their own personal reasons. For my kid she wanted a very highly regarded chemistry program. She ultimately decided she wanted 4 years for the flexibility it offered in studying additional subjects. She plans to go to law school and needs some name recognition back here. And she liked it way more than Edinburgh when we visited. The price for us is comparable to our state universities.
The class system in the UK is a disease and access to elite universities is a symptom. <<<<<
As long as you know it is the same old stuff here in the US, just maybe a different presentation of privilege. I suspect disadvantage is worse here in the USA though, with school starting as late as 6.
I don’t think there’s a country in the world where the upper middle class and up don’t have an advantage when it comes to higher education. My daughter says the “posh Brits” at St. Andrews tend to stick to themselves and be clustered in certain majors. Chemistry, physics and math, where she is making a home for herself is not where they congregate. She said that Scottish students sometimes assume all the American kids are rich and some were surprised she is expected to pay all her own expenses after tuition room and board. She set them straight while they were planning their fall break on a budget. Busses and hostels and cheap meals. She is on a strict budget to make her summer job money last all year.
The poster asked for a comparison between the academic rigor of St. Andrews and a US school. A discussion of Oxford is off topic and a discussion of cost is off topic (for the poster although I would hazard a guess not for the parental units).
My daughter has a H.S. friend (very good student who thought she would but did not get into a top 20 US school) who attends St. Andrews and apparently finds it rigorous and highly satisfying. I have heard generally very positive things “through the grapevine” about the academics and school spirit. UK schools don’t give a hoot about extracurricular activities, so a hypothetical UK school that is precisely as selective as a hypothetical US school would tend to have more academic students.
Rather than rely on this forum, it would be highly advisable to seek out Americans who went to a similar high school as yours and pump them for information. I think that means head to Scotland. If your parents won’t foot the bill, it probably means they won’t be comfortable with the unsubsidized tuition.
Lastly, while you didn’t ask about them, there are big differences between the US and UK systems that you should understand before making a decision.
I was trying to provide accurate information for other applicants in the same situation. I have looked further into differing league table positions, and I think that applicants from the US should be aware that the Complete University Guide is actually owned by the Hot Courses Group, a private company. The rankings in the Guardian may be more reliable, but they are based on subjective student surveys, which do not necessarily reflect how a university will be viewed internationally for graduate school, employment etc. Of course, from any accredited university you can get into a top ranked graduate school with good enough test scores etc, but Americans should be aware that domestic rankings do not necessarily correlate with international rankings, and may be based on a different methodology.
I went to graduate school in the physical sciences in the US and have many friends in academia in the US, mostly in the physical sciences. St. Andrews has an excellent reputation in the physical sciences community for undergraduate degrees in chemistry, physics, math and computer science. No one in those fields in the US has had anything but good things to say to us about the school. And when I look at the course work and lab work, I personally know how rigorous it is. Yes, a student applying to grad school from Cambridge or Oxford will have a edge bit the next tier down in those fields is only going to be slightly less favourably viewed given good grades and test scores.
I’m not sure that the fact that Hot Courses bought the Complete University Guide is super important, after all USNWR is a private media company with no particular expertise in education other then creating the rankings? Whether a particular ranking is valid for you goes to whether you like the methodology used and value universities similarly to those conducting the ranking. Here is a link to the Complete University Guide methodology (which utilizes data in the public domain). https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/methodology/. The Guardian explains it’s methodology here: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/may/23/methodology-behind-the-guardian-university-guide-2017. A portion (not all) of that ranking uses the National Student Survey scores.
Sorry if any comment I made seemed vendetta-ish against St A’s, @Brit17 ! I quite like what I know of St Andrews, and the rankings I linked to show the university as performing rather well.
I wouldn’t say otherwise but you have been digging up previous threads about St Andrews and what you post, suggests otherwise. Glad we’ve cleared that up though
Hey @Brit17 - I haven’t been digging up any old threads, or making negative comments about any uni, including St A’s-- maybe you have me confused with another poster?
Thanks, @Brit17! I appreciate the double-check. Actually, I should also have clarified, my own child is currently enjoying life as a bejant (first year) at Univ of St As.
I know people can feel strongly about their children’s universities, but saying someone has a vendetta for pointing out that international rankings may have a more reliable methodology than domestic ones, particularly from an international perspective, is extreme. I don’t have a vendetta against any university; I was merely pointing out different rankings and the methodologies behind them.
There are many ranking systems. For me, a methodology that relies almost exclusively on research and graduate programs is not terribly useful when evaluating the quality of undergraduate education.
@lizzzar I wouldn’t have said that you had a vendetta if you had expressed your preference of international rankings in all threads concerning UK universities, however your post history seems to focus exclusively on St Andrews.
I only recently joined and was surprised at the poor quality of information on much of this forum. I don’t think it is worth posting again. I don’t have the time or interest to go through all the threads here about different UK universities, but there are reputable rankings like Times Higher Education World universities. All the rankings I gave are international.
