Question regarding wiretapping Al Qaeda calls

<p>While I can see both sides of the issue on the wiretapping of calls “to or from Al Qaeda agents” and agree that knowing about an attack in advance could save many lives, I have a question that I have not heard asked yet by the media. The media has been concentrating on why FISA warrants were not requested (pre- or post-wiretapping) or whether or not the wiretapping is legal. But something is missing.</p>

<p>How would the NSA know in advance which calls to monitor? How would they know in advance who’s possibly “plotting” things. They say they are only listening to calls which may involve terrorist links. But what surveillance would have been done in advance to determine the names/numbers to monitor?</p>

<p>Do they have a list of “Al Qaeda” telephone numbers? Unlikely, or we’d know where the Al Qaeda operatives are. Do we have a list of “Al Qaeda” supporters in the US that we monitor? Possibly. But might there be a more sinister answer: that far more calls are electronically “monitored” - for example, using computer speech recognition for certain words or phrases in Arabic and English. From this much broader monitoring, certain numbers can be extracted for further surveillance.</p>

<p>Or maybe they don’t have this kind of technology widespread (more likely) and they are monitoring as many international calls as they can at some level just to determine the numbers to be selected for the wiretapping we know about.</p>

<p>Anyway, interesting question. I hope someone in the media will bring it up.</p>

<p>The technological side is likely very complex. Intelligence these days requires a good bit of computer skills and technical know-how.</p>

<p>One possible answer to your question is that they were only monitoring incoming calls, from known Al Qaeda sources. I will understand if you remain skeptical. </p>

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</p>

<p>Hey, you have the cake ready?</p>

<p>Yeah, where should I deliver it? I still need the candles, though</p>

<p>No problem, you can get them at the store with the cute salesgirl</p>

<p>Bring it to the book store in that place with the horses</p>

<p>Sounds good, how about on your aunts birthday, is that a good day for the celebration?</p>

<p>Good…</p>

<p>Um, I think the bad guys know they are being watched, so, speak in code</p>

<p>Even my Ds when they were in pre-school figured out how to try and fool daddy</p>

<p>So, how do they know if its a “real” conversation or not? They say they are looking for trigger words, well, I don’t think they are gonna say BOMB on the phone</p>

<p>The whole thing is jsut bizzare. And when Bush said only wiretapping could be done with a search warrant, what did he mean by that?</p>

<p>He knows when you are sleeping
He knows when you’re awake
He knows when you’ve been good or bad
so be good for goodness sake</p>

<p>…only the incoming calls…right.</p>

<p>Sigh. According to the media, the phone numbers came from captured cellphones and PC phone lists of known or suspected Al Qaeda operatives. The biggest win that way was the capture of one of their higher ranking members two or three years back.</p>

<p>Which raises an interesting question. If they had gotten a warrant to wiretap Michael Corelone and he called me on business, they can listen in on the call even though they don’t have a warrant to listen to my calls, right? The same if I called Michael.</p>

<p>So, since all the legal authorities agree it’s legal for the US government to conduct electronic surveillance (it’s not really wiretapping after all) on a phone involved in any foreign calls, calls made completely outside the US, why doesn’t it remain legal to do so when one of the numbers they’re watching calls me here in the US? Or vice versa? </p>

<p>BTW, it’s not a domestic call as some have claimed, it’s at best an international call. To be "domestic ", both legs of the call would have to be in the US. While the courts have ruled that you need a warrant to conduct electronic surveillance on purely domestic calls, I understand that no court has addressed international calls, particularly under circumstances like this.</p>

<p>so a phone with the home number and contract in the US but physically located outside the US…how do those phone play?? Geographical location of tower that said phone is transmitting from? Not where contract and phone number is located???</p>

<p>So far I have heard this discussed as voice communication but phones as transmit data: test message and other…about that?</p>

<p>As far as I know, if a US phone (a GSM cellphone registered on a foreign network as some do on vacations) is overseas (including Canada or Mexico), it can be monitored legally. The government doesn’t require a warrant to conduct electronic surveillance on a US citizen outside the US.</p>

<p>Of course, as far as I understand it, cellphones can be monitored legally by the government anyway. You have “no expectation of privacy” with a cellphone because it transmits on the public airways. The same with emails sent over the internet. Worse, even traditional phone calls often go through a variety of digital transmissions, including some where the courts have held you have “no expectation of privacy”.</p>

<p>The law really hasn’t caught up with a number of technological advances. It’s not like the old days when someone had to physically attach a listening device to your phone or, since your call went over what was effectively a contiguous copperwire, the courts could understand what they were dealing with.</p>

<p>My point exactly…much of this discussion is about other issues. Other means not phone calls. The slippery slope and rules of evidence in prosecution.</p>

<p>I’m not aware that any evidence gathered by this electronic surveillance was being prepared to be presented in court. If it makes it to court, a judge will rule on whether evidence gathered this way can be used in court. That’s the nature of checks and balances.</p>

<p>That doesn’t make gather it illegal, though.</p>

<p>I doubt legal prosecution is really the main concern/objective of the surveillance programs. It is stopping things before they happen.</p>

<p>The determination of whether it is illegal gathering will ultimately come from a legal test of evidence submission during a prosecution by the feds…that is all that I am saying.</p>

<p>Answers to questions about what can and can’t be done with communications carriers: <a href=“http://www.askcalea.net%5B/url%5D”>http://www.askcalea.net</a></p>

<p>CALEA is the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act.</p>

<p>From the CALEA website: Wiretapping is one of the FBI’s most sensitive techniques and is strictly controlled by federal statutes. It is used infrequently and then only to combat the most serious crimes and terrorism. Title 18, United States Code, Section 2516, contains the protocol requiring all law enforcement officers to establish probable cause that the wiretaps may provide evidence of a felony violation of federal law. After determining if a sufficient showing of probable cause has been made, impartial federal judges approve or disapprove wiretaps. The approving judge then must continue to monitor how the wiretap is being conducted. Wiretapping without meeting these stringent requirements and obtaining the necessary court orders is a serious felony under the law.</p>

<p>This National Press Club speech, from NSA director Hayden, is probably as close to the definitive description out there. Among other things, it alludes to the fact that notions of wiretapping and “domestic spying”–as regards this program–are beyond old-fashioned. It’s a long piece, but worth the time for those interested, with Q&A after.
Snip:

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.dni.gov/release_letter_012306.html[/url]”>http://www.dni.gov/release_letter_012306.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>A very interesting on-air conversation on this subject between two constitutional law professors --one liberal (Cass Sunstein) and one convservative (Hugh Hewitt) can be found here: <a href=“http://radioblogger.com/archives/december05.html#001248[/url]”>http://radioblogger.com/archives/december05.html#001248&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This is also an important piece by Cass Sunstein: <a href=“http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2005/12/presidential_wi_1.html#more[/url]”>http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2005/12/presidential_wi_1.html#more&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Bush:</p>

<p>Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires-a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we’re talking about chasing down terrorists, we’re talking about getting a court order before we do so. It’s important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution."</p>

<p>If the technology is sophisicated enough to just look for certain numbers nad ceratin words, etc, is it not sophisicated enough to give a list of what was done in the previous 72 hours to a judge?</p>

<p>OHHHHH< right, don’t want a paper trail to see who is really be spied on</p>

<p>And the words used were “and associates”, what does that mean?</p>

<p>If my Irish brother in law is dating a Iraqi girl and she calls her brother who’s soccer buddy is a brother of an insurrgent, is that an association?</p>

<p>I have not heard that it is not</p>

<p>And if NSA people know all the details, and the FBI, and people in the telecommunications arena do, why weren’t all the appropriate member of both committees given the details, as is required by law</p>

<p>guess the law is irrelevant</p>

<p>But citygirlsmom, they don’t need a warrant to listen into anyone making a call outside the US. The question is whether they do when a person of interest outside the US calls or is called by someone inside the US. The last I heard, the courts haven’t ruled on that particular issue. Roving wiretaps aren’t the issue at all. And CALEA is the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act doesn’t apply.</p>

<p>As for the sophistication of the technology, it’s pretty easy to tell what numbers are being called. What we don’t understand is how they’re deciding who they should listen to and how long that takes. It can’t be happening real-time. No one has that technology ECHELON fantasies beside. It just doesn’t happen. </p>

<p>If they’re doing what I think they’re doing, it could be days or weeks before they get a hit. Easily too long after the call to use the 72 hour rule.</p>

<p>Bingo…the new work study or you ppiisseed you boss off job…listening. The 72 hour rule is what this is about…the time has expired, you find the hit and you want to prosecute…enter this hit as evidence.</p>

<p>72 hour rule is after, it is paperwork that MUST be done</p>

<p>it does not stop the process, it records the process</p>

<p>but recording the process is not what Bush wants, and Bush and his minions really had no proof to get a warrant, so they just didn’t</p>

<p>Did you know that Powell was wire tapped? Yep, by our own government…now why would Colin Powell be wiretapped?</p>

<p>So, if they have the numbers they are watching, why not give those numbers to the FISA court, at least to have in the record?</p>