Racism?

kaleidotroph · April 23, 2012, 7:19pm

Hello, CCers! After an upsetting experience with UIL OAP Regional competition this weekend, I’m curious: is there really such a stigma against Latin@s in college theatre? I am asking specifically about Texas and Oklahoma, and yes, I am expecting answers like “Well, they’re southern states, of course they’re going to be racist, that’s the norm!” but I honestly want more helpful responses. I am, by no means, a pushover, and being Latina, I will not accept blatant discrimination.

My concern is, would I be cast in roles other than the stereotypical Mexican part (maid, etc)? Do I have to be a thousand times better than white actors because I’m Latina?

Schools I’m asking about in particular are Oklahoma City University, Texas State University, Southwestern University, University of Houston, and Southern Methodist University. Yes, I realize that a few of these schools are very white, but is racism common on the campuses, in the theatre department? Would I be given the same treatment as the white students?

snapdragonfly · April 23, 2012, 10:54pm

I have lived in Texas for the past 30 years, we visited most of the schools on your list ourselves, and not only do I not think you would find bias in casting, I think sometimes at some schools here it doesn’t hurt you any…especially when half the faculty is Hispanic.

In fact Southwestern has some really nice scholarships only available to Hispanics, as does St. Ed’s where my daughter attends. St Ed’s is a very Hispanic friendly school - they have a wonderful program for children of agricultural migrant workers that pays their entire way for four years with tutors and all kinds of support. The state colleges are all hooked into the UIL competition system and the head of the theatrical design contest department is Hispanic, as was my daughter’s judge last year. I don’t know what upsetting experience you had: If you want, pm me about it.

I will tell you that my daughter’s first place in the state winning UIL costume competition last year, was a Hispanic interpretation of Alice in Wonderland and they were apparently thrilled with her cultural sensitivity and appreciation. They would not have had any idea if she was Hispanic or not when her entries were actually judged, as you know as well as I that a Hispanic person can have a non Hispanic surname for various reasons, and the Hispanic and non Hispanic professors judging the shows know that too. This makes it automatically different than judging performance, so keep that in mind, whatever the implication is there, which I’m not sure just what it is, actually.

My daughter’s first place in the state win the year BEFORE (and yeah, I’m bragging, sorry, but I think in context it’s important to see just how successful she was) was an Indian (as in Asian, not native American) interpretation of Antigone and they ate that one up. They loved that she was embraced and carefully researched other cultural conventions - not with stereotypes but with sensitivity and inclusiveness. I’m kinda proud she’s that way, myself, maybe even more than the award, and I hope many Texas college students are that way also.

My impression has been that overall, multiculturalism is the expectation in the Texas higher educational system; of course there is always individuals and individual experiences that aren’t in line with the norm, which you might have had one of those, regretfully.

I grew up in New Mexico and while recent immigrants are facing a nasty backlash in this current stupid political climate, the reality of life there going back my entire 50 years was that the business owners, judges, lawyers, policemen, politicians, teachers, and elite in that state were just as likely to be Hispanic as not. The most popular kids i my graduating class had last names like Garcia and Flores and were in no way unequal in status to the white kids based only on race. Now there are so few blacks you couldn’t say that for them. And here in East Texas, it is different.

But the population in central Texas, especially Austin, San Antonio, San Marcos, etc, has been so heavily Hispanic for so long that I don’t think you can assume Hispanics will automatically be disadvantaged in the way you describe. I think if a part is race specific, it will be cast that way - you could not have a black girl play Tracy in Hairspray and white kids play the black parts - but the definite impression I get, especially as this is after all still a school play and not a Hollywood film, is that it’s about range and seeming right for the part, and race might play into it but just like height or type, it’s just as likely to work for you as against you. Might work against you for Laurie in Oklahoma. Would very probably work for you as Maria in West Side Story. What is going to matter most is your range and voice and acting and dancing ability, in any quality program. I’ve seen more than one play where they flat out ignored race anomolies in their casting decisions.

I’m not Hispanic and possibly am overlooking some slights, and do not wish at all to give the impression of having such hubris as to speak for the Hispanic community, but I would a lot rather be Hispanic in south Texas than black in East Texas, as far as equality and fair treatment goes. That’s my frank feeling on the matter, and I regret that I have to make that observation for East Texas, but it’s true.

I haven’t lived in Oklahoma but it’s still the Southwest and still has a very large non white population.

Also, most universities simply are a more liberal atmosphere…racism doesn’t automatically get a pass in most liberal communities, does it? I would think not, I would hope not.

snapdragonfly · April 23, 2012, 11:19pm

PS - I realize you use the term latina and I’ve used Hispanic, so I hope that’s not offensive to you - that’s the term that my generation was taught was correct to use, and it’s just impossible for me to second guess if someone has a preference plus habit for me to say Hispanic - no offense meant.

kaleidotroph · April 24, 2012, 2:04pm

Thanks for your response, snapdragonfly. I do appreciate your posts. The experience I had at UIL involved an incredibly ignorant judge who, during the first seven minutes of my school’s performance, busied herself with arranging her desk and drink (a parent saw this and relayed the info to our director). She was completely ignorant of the Oedipus Rex trilogy, judging by the way she thought Polynices was Antigone’s father, and she didn’t seem to have paid attention to our show at all, given her mostly confused critiques. She even thought there had been a wardrobe malfunction during the scene where Haemon brings out Antigone’s dead body, which is bare aside from a bodysuit and red strips of the wedding dress she hung herself with (which is stated very clearly in the play). We had put on a great performance, second only to another play which was Spanish, put on by a white cast.

My school, as well as another, was the only Latin@-centric cast at regionals, and we were ranked 5th and 6th, respectively. We were all surprised when a show we had already crossed out as competition after watching it ended up advancing. We watched all the shows except one, in fact, and we knew that it was us and the Spanish play that advanced. Everyone did.

So imagine our surprise and anger when we learn that we were given ranks of 2, 5, and 5 by the judges. It didn’t help matters when our critic judge condescendingly told us that she was surprised our diction was so good, and then proceeded to critique the curtains. The curtains, which are not a part of our show.

I was curious about the woman and her background because there was nearly nothing in her bio in the program, just that she had taught theatre for 38 years. I looked her up on Facebook and, surprise, she liked a page called “I shouldn’t have to press 1 for English in America.” She even posted a status which said that she had read 4 of the 6 scripts, and it was evident that she hadn’t read ours or the other school’s, because otherwise she wouldn’t have asked such idiotic questions during critiques.

And this is all at regional competition. Regionals! You’d have expected better at that level. It’s so infuriating, knowing that that one judge in particular was so enamored by a Spanish show put on by white kids, yet when she saw actual Latin@ kids daring to put on a Greek show, she looked away.

That is not even a singular case. At state last year, we were referred to as the Mexican kids who were like ‘little soldiers.’ In every contest, even, we are judged by our accents if they so much as slip once.

Thinking about all of this, it hit me: what if I was going to go through this in college, too? And thus my concern! I live in south Texas and so I don’t experience discrimination when I’m not at a UIL event. I know it exists, however, and it broke my heart so much that I nearly just gave up on the possibility of acting in college (I’m still indecisive on whether to study acting or tech, but I act now and love it, so I’m doing more research on that; I’m going to be exposed to a lot more tech this summer, though).

I will take into account your perspective, which has been helpful! Kudos to your daughter, too, for investing herself in multicultural (and respectful!) projects.

(Also, no, I am not offended by ‘Hispanic,’ although I do prefer Latina.)

snapdragonfly · April 24, 2012, 3:30pm

I’m aghast at the unprofessionalism of the judge.

I don’t really know what to say to that - I think a valid formal complaint could possibly be lodged, actually.

And my daughter is white so as I said, it’s possible there were slights going on she didn’t catch as they weren’t directed at her…but…she’s very much a stick up for the underdog kind of person and had there been an occurance like that at any of her UIL’s I would have been hearing indignant rants about the really good school that got screwed out of the rank they deserved, because those are the kinds of things she does rant about - and she’s pretty objective, she’s always acknowledged the times they didn’t advance because they simply weren’t the best, as opposed to the times everyone was utterly puzzled as to who did advance, so I imagine she would be objective about other schools too.

I actually don’t see why you shouldn’t simply outright ask the department heads about it. That’s the kind of thing I’d prefer to do in person to catch their facial expressions. But it’s as valid a question about a program as, say, asking if their is a bias about the BA’s being “allowed to audition just like the BFA’s” but in reality usually getting chorus parts, while there is clearly a bias for the BFA’s. Which we have all heard may not be the case at all schools but seems to be at some - and you have a right to know these things before you make a decision.

Why would they make a remark about your diction? Is the community norm in which your school exists that there is a regional accent? I have many many latino friends and they have speech patterns which cover every part of the spectrum from heavily accented to completely indistinguishable from non latino residents of the same region so I’m making no assumptions one way or the other.

Also I have no idea if that is supposed to be part of the judging criteria? I really don’t. I do know that if a school chooses to do a play where the characters do have accents, they’d better do a good job of it. My daughter’s school did “A View from a Bridge” one year which requires, what is it, Brooklyn accents, and wow, I think this little group of east Texas kids most of whom have never been east of the Appalachians were frankly kind of awful with them - some were better than others but accents are hard to do right. Most people don’t unless they have studied that sort of thing or actually lived in the area in question, really. I cringe to hear actors attempting “southern” accents because, oi. No, we don’t in fact talk like that here in Texas, they are doing Georgia or Generic Badly Done Gone Southern Drawl or something.

So, I really don’t know what the expectation is as far as all that in the judging, if it was a valid critique that the judge applied wrongly, or if it is not supposed to enter into it, or if it didn’t even apply to you and your classmates anyway, so I am not sure how to state specifically what the judge did wrong in the context of UIL rules. It would be good to have that information if you think you might want to lodge a complaint. Her general behavior was definitely rude, though, and from the sounds of the facebook thing, she does sound like she fits into a certain stereotype that you DO run across, unfortunately, here, frequently in elementary and high school as well as the general population.

But not usually universities, especially with a more liberal bent, at least not as many and not as blatant. Now quite frankly my daughter is pretty liberal and that was one reason for her eventual choice, because some of the schools here have a reputation for being more conservative, and she just figured she’d learned enough about living with conservative viewpoints in her 12 years of school here already. lol.

You might have just gotten a really crappy judge. But who was referring to you as “the Mexican kids” and why did they call you little soldiers? Is your school’s ethnic makeup in the minority in your region? Because it’s just such a non -issue in areas with heavy latina population like most of south Texas. Wow.

But for heaven’s sake don’t give up on your hearts dream on account of what was either one of two things: a) a bigoted behavior or b) a behavior that you perceived as bigoted but actually wasn’t. I mean, those are the only two possibilities, either they were racist or they weren’t but seemed to be. (which I’m not accusing you of, I’m just saying there are only two possible scenarios) In either case, you should never let such a thing change your mind about what YOU want to do!!!

snapdragonfly · April 24, 2012, 4:04pm

I had a few more thoughts.

One is that what happens in UIL and what happens in a reputable college program are very different things, they are different worlds, with different purposes and different structures: one is not a microcosm of the other.

What I truly suspect is the case with UIL, based only on what our experiences were, is that overall it’s about as fair and objective as it’s possible for competitions to be, but that we are dealing with individual humans and all their quirks and it is possible to run across someone who is unfair or racist, because that can happen anywhere. If you research your experience and truly feel it was a racially motivated injustice that was serious enough that your school needs to take this issue up, in part for the sake of those who come behind you, that’s a decision only you and your school’s administration can make - but be cautioned, and this is nothing personal but simply the way it is for ALL of us - that in this profession, and especially at UIL competitions, that complaints about losing are often viewed as very bad form. Even if it’s true and was horribly unfair - there are always those who, no matter the truth, will view it as sour grapes and bad form. Not saying it’s right or fair, just saying, that is sometimes how it plays out, so be forwarned.

If on the other hand, everyone decides to move on for now and see if this seems to be a pattern indicating an ingrained problem, or more a matter of bad luck in having drawn the racist or just stupid judge, then go on, put it past you, and I wouldn’t assume you can expect this situation to repeat at college.

For one thing, when my D was auditioning at U of O for BFA acting, which is one of those small capped programs, they were very open about the fact that they are looking for one ingenue, one character, one ETHNIC, one this, one that, etc. We have often discussed on this board, that it doesn’t matter how stellar of a tall blonde soprano ingenue type you are - if they already have offered a spot to one and she took it, you aren’t getting that opening. They only want a couple of each type, and they want all types, including ethnic people; no department wants all blonde Swedish girls. Seriously.

So it goes back to what I said. Just as being short might lose you a part, it might get you a part. Being ethnic might lose you a part, it might get you a part. Being a soprano might lose you a part, it might get you a part. I think you will find that what people care about and how you are judged to be be completely different in a university program than at high school UIL competitions.

That is what I think anyway, I hope it is of help to you. Best of luck in your search - don’t let a stupid high school thing stop you or you won’t make it in this business. It’s a tough, rough, and usually VERY unfair industry - you have the right to demand fair equal civic rights in public high schools - out in the real world, they cast who they will for whatever reasons suit them and you WILL be treated unfairly: everyone is at one time or another. It’s just the nature of this industry. And the racial barriers still exist in Hollywood as well as gender barriers, and I imagine Broadway too, so get ready for it, because that’s reality right now.

ps. latinas can be ingenues too. They just want a variety; I don’t think they offer spots to ethnics just to fill maid roles…there are so many plays which are race neutral that I don’t think you will find yourself pigeonholed to minor parts on account of ethnicity, not as a rule in college anyway.

kaleidotroph · April 24, 2012, 5:01pm

Where I live, yes, the Mexican accent is prolific and living with it for years and years, it rubs off on you one way or another. My director is planning to complain about it, and well, she has a track record for dealing with these things. She tells us her times in the 90s when they were never, ever given an opportunity to advance because they were <a href=“mailto:Latin@s”>Latin@s</a>. It comes as a surprise to her now that such blatant prejudice was shown to us because things have inevitably changed since then–although in the case of accents and diction, it still creeps in subtly.

We’re called ‘little soldiers’ because our director disciplines us greatly. We don’t dare yawn in the middle of critiques or tech rehearsal, for example, and we never yell or whoop during awards. If we step a toe out of line, we’ve got it in for us. I’ve always found the term condescending, judging the whole Mexican kids thing…really, we encounter that a lot more frequently at the state level, where we’re often the only Latin@s in our conference.

I was very appalled at the conduct of the judge because I didn’t think that that treatment would ever be shamelessly given to high school students, of all people! It strikes me as extremely childish and unprofessional. Perhaps there is leeway for the concept of breaking down minorities at a young age to prepare them for the real world, but in my opinion, that’s just cruel, especially when we’ve worked so hard to get where we are today.

And yes, I am already getting talks from my director which refer to the elitism and iniquity of the theatre world, and it bothers me so much that even what I love isn’t void of BS. I am very tough-skinned when it comes to my racial identity, to the point where I will rant and rave relentlessly, but Lord. The world of college theatre is currently completely incomprehensible to me, obviously, and I really appreciative of your insight, snapdragonfly. I’m not going to give up, though I contemplated it out of pure frustration, and I know that the reality is that I will be treated unfairly, in this society of ours. I just don’t want to go to a school to invest my time and money into a program which will not benefit me whatsoever in terms of training and experience. That is my main concern. But based on what you’ve told me, it shouldn’t be a great problem, especially not in auditioned programs.

snapdragonfly · April 24, 2012, 6:19pm

Well, I didn’t go into it looking to evaluate that part of it. But judging from what I did evaluate, I didn’t see evidence kids being judged on anything other than if they fit the slot the school needed, and that fit was determined by many many factors, appearance being one, and only one, of those factors, and as I said, a variety of many types being desirable. And also, my daughter has not mentioned any instances of her friends having experienced problems with this issue.
But you need to visit the schools you are considering and have a good talk with the other kids and the faculty and make your own evaluation, based on what you think, not what I think, because it’s your life, your money, your education. I could be wrong, though when dealing with so many factors that are subjective, it’s hard to vet anything as completely wrong or right but probably more accurate to see it in shades of grey, and that perceptions are subjective and depend on the experiences that filter any one person’s perspective.

Wouldn’t math be easier, in a way, for us all…lol

snapdragonfly · April 24, 2012, 6:25pm

Funny about your director. My daughter’s high school drama teacher, whom I had a lot of issues and problems with on account of certain personality weaknesses mostly having to do with an almost crippling disorganization issue, was pretty good in a few certain strengths - one was her expectations of her kids and the work ethic and behavior she expected. She was mixed race, which around here just gets one labeled as “black” but I believe she was part Puerto Rican or something similar, and she was from Wisconsin, so she was about as different from the usual theater teacher as it was possible to get, for us. She was very fair and even handed about casting and racial background. I don’t feel that white kids got the short end of the stick at all, but she did cast shows that had a lot of roles for black kids - which, being as how the high school is almost 50% black kids, is hard to argue against. The big musical her senior and junior year were Hairspray and The Wiz - and there were plenty of roles for all the kids of every color.

TheRealKEVP · April 25, 2012, 8:28am

Forget the “UIL OAP Regional competition”.

This woman knows nothing about theatre. So that is why she has been stuck for 38 years teaching theatre at what I assume is high school level.

You need to get away from people like that. When you are looking at colleges and universities, have a good look at the faculty and make sure that they are people who have actually worked professionally in the entertainment industry and so will be able to evaluate you professionally. (and it doesn’t hurt to check to see if there are any Latino/Latina faculty)

I don’t know about the Texas and Oklahoma schools you are asking about, but I do know that there are colleges and universities in the United States where racism is practically non-existent, especially in the theatre program. You may want to cast your net wider and get out of the Texas and Oklahoma region if you are encountering racism.

KEVP

snapdragonfly · April 25, 2012, 9:33am

Wise words ^^^ about getting past UIL and evaluating programs.

I think there are Texas and OK schools in which you would not encounter racism, I really do, but what would it hurt to take that advice and look further, also. And I feel that theatre programs in colleges tend to be the most progressive of programs anyway - it’s sort of the nature of the beast from what I’ve seen.

Times3 · April 25, 2012, 10:18am

KEVP, from those of us who choose to teach arts at the high school level, can I just say: OUCH? I’d like to think I know something about my subject area and am not “stuck teaching at the high school level.” Give us some credit–we are committed to working with teenagers and happily teaching the kids who are then flocking to arts programs at the college level. Yes, there are people who are biased and/or unqualified in every kind of work and at every level, but please, can we refrain from condemning high school teachers of theater (or anything else) based on what sounds like a truly dreadful (if unusual) experience? To Kaleidotroph: I’m betting you will have a wonderful reception at many college programs–and you sound like a determined, intelligent student–best of luck and please keep us posted about how things go as you apply! :)

arrdad · April 25, 2012, 10:36am

Sorry to hear about your experience with regional one act play in Texas. It may be hard for you to accept, but some judges are simply not good.

A long time ago, this dad of a future theatre kid was in his HS one act play, and we did Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night. I can still remember the “cruel” judge who told me that my diction was weak and my Texas accent was too obvious.

Your list of colleges in Texas and Oklahoma is comprised mainly of audition based programs (Southwestern is non-audition). Each of those audition based schools is looking for talent and fit. If you happen to win acceptance to any of those schools, I bet you will be impressed with the diversity within their theatre programs.

Texas State and SMU are very difficult programs to be selected in to. Texas State has an option for theatre that is non-auditioned, but those kids will not have a realistic chance to compete against the BFA kids for casting. OCU is also fairly selective. Houston’s undergrad program isn’t as well known as the others, but has a reputation of having to compete with it’s own graduate school theatre program.

Good luck to you as you pursue your options.

kaleidotroph · April 25, 2012, 5:32pm

Thank you for all your input. My outlook on college is becoming a lot vaster. I plan to e-mail and talk to the faculty of the schools I’m very interested in about these issues, but of course, logically, I shouldn’t encounter great debacles in auditioned programs (if I am accepted to them–that’s another hurdle to jump!).

TheRealKEVP- Initially, I wanted to apply to schools as far away from my region as possible. As time wore on, however, the prospect of going so far away at an age where I am definitely not prepared to make that transition frustrated me, so I thought it’d be more feasible to stay in and around Texas. Of course, I’d like to make my way out once I’ve braved the surroundings of home, but that’s a distant future. So though I have a somewhat limited selection, I think I’ll feel a lot more secure in a school near (as near as 6-9 hours can get) to home. Besides, I do quite like the sound of a few programs in/around Texas, such as Texas State, SMU, and especially OCU. The ‘getting in’ issue is another one entirely, heh.

Thank you, Times3! I do enjoy this forum as a resource for college theatre, as the only confidant I have is my director, and I’m even a little intimidated by her. I really hope I show enough promise, as I’ve only been doing theatre since I was a freshman (and then, I was doing props in our technical theatre class, which doesn’t really get to work with the theatre production class).

Arrdad, I was looking at Texas State’s non-auditioned programs, but like you said, it’d be a lot more difficult to find experience on stage in the program. It does seem rather focused on its BFA Acting & Musical Theatre programs, so I’d be a bit of a stick in the mud. As for University of Houston, I have heard similar testimonies as to their program. There is little about the undergraduate theatre program in comparison to the graduate program; I do, on the other hand, like UH’s connections with the Alley Theatre and regional theatres besides. They also seem to offer good training–8 acting classes, I believe, with a few less movement and voice classes?

megpmom · April 25, 2012, 9:17pm

To the OP: you may want to also look at Sam Houston State University, Abilene Christian University and Stephen F. Austin State University. All 3 have very good theatre/drama programs and are less competitive. Remember, you will need some “safety” schools.

Also, my kids attend (or have attended) a fine arts magnet high school that is roughly 40% Hispanic. Many of their friends attend well respected college theatre programs in Texas, Oklahoma and beyond - and I don’t hear any reports of racism. I wouldn’t make broad conclusions about one incident with a poor UIL judge. In my experience, UIL judging can be pretty random.

kaleidotroph · April 25, 2012, 9:55pm

Oh yes, I’ve been looking at SFA and SHSU and plan to apply to them! As for Abilene, I’m not the most religious person in the world, and I don’t know if the community would be accepting in terms of alternative lifestyles…it looks like a great theatre program, as does Baylor, but again, I dislike the notion of an overly religious atmosphere. No offense to religious people, of course, it’s just not my thing.

Is the BFA in Acting/Directing at SHSU auditioned, by the way? It doesn’t seem to be, but I really don’t see anything on their website that mentions it.

As for SFA, I really, really like the look of their program, especially the study abroad and internship opportunities.

snapdragonfly · April 25, 2012, 10:08pm

We seriously considered SFA. It was her first choice in state schools and mainly for the abroad program. None of the other schools, even the very very fine auditioned BFA programs, that we looked at (and we looked at every single Texas and OK school) have an abroad program as appealing as theirs, in my opinion. It’s a very strong point.

They don’t have an MT degree and D got a good enough aid offer that she could go to St Ed’s (but now MT is not the direction - oh irony! ~ but that’s okay, she’s happy there) so she didn’t pick SFA. But we visited it three times and I would say it’s definitely worth putting on your list.

Racism?

CONNECT WITH US