The greek experience at my school was 180 degrees different from the Tik Tok reels and Bama Rush. We didn’t dress alike, we didn’t have to act a certain way. The common conception of greek life is foreign to me. We used to joke that we’d never be in a sorority at our state flagship. My H was in a fraternity, and the guys were awesome - they would never have allowed anything like what happened at Cornell to happen. I had friends in other fraternities, and I feel the same way about them. Like everything in life, what something is really like depends.
10 Likes
The money trail will be the way colleges wrest control away from the “out of control” frats and sororities. Not the ones who play by the rules- but the renegades.
Someone just sent me what is allegedly part of Jane Doe’s civil lawsuit- I can’t verify it so I won’t post. But it outlines internal documents from a few insurance companies about the rising premium rates for liability insurance of off-campus fraternity houses. The rates will explode. I predict that the frats won’t be able to pass the costs on to pledges; the buildings will be sold back to the university for regular off-campus housing and the Harry Potter Enthusiast Club will have its own theme building for its members. It will only take one or two spectacular payouts with clear criminal activity (and the presence of Ketamine in the Cornell case- which nobody seems to be denying) for the insurers to walk away.
According to the document I was sent, insuring fraternities is just behind hazardous waste disposal companies and asbestos contractors in the industry in terms of risk. The difference is that a waste disposal company passes its increased premiums on to its customers. And the presence of drugs or alcohol in a fraternity is a clear risk factor for OTHER types of liability-- non SA related. Fire, kid falling off a deck or rooftop while drunk, etc.
6 Likes
What I don’t understand is why the rampant underage drinking and drug use is permitted on or near college campuses. I get that police can’t go into off campus private properties but at least in my neck of the woods, the big frat parties are spilling out onto the public streets and alleyways. The “nuisance houses,” as they are colloquially called by the university, are well known to both campus and local authorities. We even have one day/year that the local police turn a blind eye on open container laws and we ended up with 2-3 dozen kids in the ER with alcohol poisoning or drug overdose on that day. There are kids literally getting sick in the streets at 10 am because they’ve started drinking at breakfast. Why is that ever OK? And I do think that alcohol and drug use play a huge role in sexual assaults.
6 Likes
Add me to the list of “not a fan of Greek life, especially the "stereotypic Greek life” folks. Criteria when I looked at colleges is that I was not interested in Greek life and the absence of Greek life had a school was a plus for me. Neither of my kids was involved in Greek life and the cliquish behavior is noxious to me.
1 Like
Probably part of why some fraternities have made it national policy that no alcohol is permitted in the fraternity houses.
3 Likes
I think most colleges do crack down on underage drinking that occurs on their physical property. The problem is that a lot of living is off campus and a lot of events are off campus, which limits their jurisdiction. Some colleges have an honor code, which students are subject to whether or not they are off campus - and they can be disciplined according to that code.
If more colleges were able to provide and require on campus living for all four years, they could have somewhat more control, but keep in mind that a significant percentage of students would still reach the legal drinking age. Colleges could choose a dry campus policy but again that doesn’t address what happens off campus.
Students and their families need to address the issue of binge drinking before they leave for college. What underlying psychological issues might drive a student to have 12 drinks instead of stopping after one or two (if they’re going to drink at all). Not to mention the drug problem. Sometimes that goes beyond what a college can control - especially if it is located in a city or town where drug sales and use are already rampant. College students are an easy target.
2 Likes
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/ViewDocument?docIndex=w3cAcu0L42eUEEFc9PeClw%3D%3D
Jane Doe’s attorney (Thomas Giuffra) has a link to the civil complaint on his firm’s website, for anyone interested in the allegations. I believe the particulars re: insurance begin on page 21.
1 Like
I’m not seeing any crack down. Where I live campus police and local police are supposed to be working in conjunction with each other and both have jurisdiction to make arrests and enforce the laws on and off campus. We have two nuisance houses just a few blocks away and are friends with one couple that live directly behind one of them. I can’t tell you how many times the police have been called for underage drinking, noise violations, people playing beer pong in the alley or the front yard, people on roofs of the detached garages screaming and jumping off onto trampolines, etc… It took more than a 1/2 a dozen police complaints before the fraternity president and his lawyer appeared in local court. They got a warning from the judge. The university did nothing.
I do agree that alcohol and drug safety starts at home but police should be enforcing the laws that are already on the books and not turning a blind eye.
5 Likes
Even though most of us are outraged about what happened, we dont know all the facts yet. There’s a difference between ethical and unethical behavior vs illegal behavior so I dont want to assume anything, but if proven there should be severe consequences outside of just being kicked out of Cornell.
2 Likes
Off campus frats STILL need insurance. I think that’s the mechanism the universities will have for getting rid of the problematic ones. No national frat can afford to self-insure a multi-level building filled with 19 and 20 year old’s. And once commercial insurers raise the premiums in line with the actual risks…
On the insurance aspect - I assume the named defendants’ families are probably going to pay out of pocket for legal defense. I doubt their liability coverage extends to intentional acts.
The issue isn’t the legal costs… it’s the damages if that’s the way the case goes. Potentially millions.
Hey -so this is from Gemini -take it how you will - and of course, feel free to debate! But I do think it articulates why getting rid of fraternities and sororities won’t eliminate SA on campuses. You can also look at European colleges that have nearly identical SA rates -but no sororities/fraternities
From Gemini:
What Fraternities Actually Do: Concentration, Not Invention
Criminological and public health research in the U.S. (such as the landmark studies by John Foubert and AAU campus climate surveys) does establish that:
-
Men in fraternities are roughly three times more likely to commit rape than non-affiliated men.
-
Women in sororities are roughly 74% more likely to experience rape than non-affiliated women.
However, the question is whether the fraternity produces this violence or simply concentrates it:
-
Selection Bias (Self-Sorting): Fraternities systematically attract young men who already score higher on psychological measures of hyper-masculinity, rape-myth acceptance, and entitlement. Those individuals do not become non-predatory simply because they live in an off-campus apartment instead of a fraternity house.
-
Control of Alcohol and Space: American drinking laws (the federal 21-year-old minimum drinking age) give fraternities an artificial monopoly over freshman social life. Because 18- and 19-year-olds cannot legally enter bars, fraternity houses become private, unpoliced party zones where older male members control the alcohol, music, door access, and upstairs bedrooms.
-
Displacement: When universities ban or suspend Greek life (or at universities that never had it, like Northeastern liberal arts colleges or large commuter schools), the baseline prevalence remains remarkably stable at roughly 20% to 25%. The parties and peer dynamics simply shift off-campus to athletic team houses, private rental clusters, and informal party networks where university oversight and Title IX jurisdiction become even harder to enforce.
1 Like
Right. I meant defending them and paying any settlement costs, not just legal defense. Their liability insurance probably isnt going to pay for that because theyre probably going to be deemed intentional acts.
Someone’s mommy and daddy are very busy today transferring their assets to siblings, parents, or moving them off-shore. As our sage and bard Mike Tyson said- everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face…
I understand the point you are making, but it is VERY different to form a “blanket opinion” from TikTok, and to point out the long verified and consistent STATISTICS that being involved in Greek life significantly increases the likelihood that a student will either be raped or rape someone. It isn’t anecdotal or based on social media, it is a verified fact. And yes, of course people can choose to participate, but they should do so knowing what it means and what real risk it involves.
That some women find support from their sorority sisters doesn’t change that fact at all.
4 Likes
And a datapoint- if true- that insuring a fraternity house is comparably risky to insuring a hazardous waste company-- yikes. Forget the financial angle- this is the place your kid is eating, sleeping, studying.
I get the argument that we shouldn’t judge all Greek life based on the Tik-tok’s.
But why must the members of these groups continue to post these if they are not grounded in some truth? Do we really need another visual reminder of the elaborate grooming rituals of college students?
They don’t need liability insurance if they are renting the house as individuals though, and this is how some greek members structure their off campus housing.
3 Likes
Most Greek houses aren’t owned by the university, but by the organizations themselves and run by a House Corp made up of alumni
I believe this is the case for all sororities. Which is why mixers at frat houses where they are supplying the alcohol is the norm. Also note, that some Greek houses are local and not involved with a national organization so have very little oversight
If you look at my previous posts on CC regarding Greek life, you will see how many times I’ve told parents to never allow their kid to assume a leadership/board position… even if they were not involved with the incident, they will be named in any lawsuit. We know multiple parents who have had to pony up for legal representation.
Remember, those TikToks are the ones pushed in the algorithms and the ones that kids are attracted to. Because I was in a sorority that was polar opposite to what was depicted, I took a look at some TikTok and Insta pages. Yes, the SEC and similar houses posted the dances the getting ready OTD videos and had Instas that were completely curated with matching outfits (along with hair, skin color and physical build), while houses at my school continue to just post pictures of a bunch of diverse girls just having goofy fun together.
1 Like
I am really really disappointed to read a statement like this. Trying to thread the needle here whether this students experience of sexual assault was illegal vs. “merely unethical” is, frankly sir (I’m very confident you are a man), gross.
5 Likes