But the statement is true. Who knows why the NY statute is written the way it is! It leaves room for some very unethical, immoral behavior that isn’t, according to NY, illegal. Even when confronted with texts, the DA said they had nothing to do with consent, which is the basis of the law.
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Exactly why we need more women at the table when laws are made. It’s still very much a country of laws made by men, from the viewpoint and experience of men.
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Cornell says their campus police gave the DA the transcript. Someone dropped the ball here…big time.
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Im talking from a legal perspective and what has to be proven. I condemned the actions from the very beginning if everything is proven true. If you are a lawyer, you’d understand. When I was in law school and took a legal aid clinic, we ran into a ton of cases of violence against women. They were terrible, which is why the students took on those cases far more than any other type. My personal opinion on this is straight forward.
You should read my previous posts on this matter before jumping to conclusions. Personally, Im offended that you think just because Im a man, Id tolerate any form of sexual assault.
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My take on all this will sound cynical, but it comes from my own observations and conversations - others with different experiences may disagree. I attended a university with a large and powerful Greek system (much moreso than I understood before enrolling), and a huge percentage of the guys that lived in my freshman dorm joined one of the dozen or so national fraternity chapters on campus. After hearing and observing their plans and conversations for a year, as well as discussing in the years since with friends who were members of frats at other schools (one of whom now regrets his tenure as president of his frat at an SEC school), I’m convinced that fraternities exist primarily, if perhaps not solely, to solve a particular problem for male students.
Colleges are chock full of young men who eagerly desire to engage in sexual activity - they are 18-22 years old, after all, and nature is nature. The central problem of their lives, then, is finding a young woman to engage with. (I’m going to use heterosexual language for simplicity, but presumably something similar would be true for others as well, and I’m also assuming broadly that one isn’t going to commit a heinous crime.) There are several unpalatable options here:
- You could hire an escort, but that’s generally illegal, expensive, dangerous on several levels, and potentially embarrassing.
- You could actually get to know a woman and start a genuine romantic relationship that might develop into a physical one, but this is a painfully slow route, and many young men at this stage don’t want any of the other relationship aspects anyway.
- You could simply ask a female friend or acquaintance to engage with you, but she might well refuse and then spread the word among her social circles, further reducing your future options.
- The ideal, I was told many times, was to find someone who was equally interested in a casual, no-commitment physical relationship - but the supply of these women (fairly limited) was nowhere near the demand (extraordinary).
Enter fraternities. The actual goal (never the stated goal) of most Greek fraternities, as I came to understand it, is to host parties wherein the circumstances make sexual encounters between the brothers and attractive women much more likely than they otherwise would be, but without crossing the threshold into anything that might be considered “assault.” Alcohol is obviously key here - it not only lowers inhibitions in the moment, but also makes everyone’s memory of events hazy, such that later no one has a clear picture of what happened. You would also want to make sure that guests did not bring male friends, who might get in the way, and it’s always dark, smoky, loud, and crowded, adding to a general sense of chaos and confusion. And you have drunken brothers goading each other to do things that they might not do in the light of day, in the same sense that a mob mentality encourages ordinary people to get caught up in a moment and do things they would not typically do. All of this creates a context facilitating the desired outcome.
It is probably clear that I find this reprehensible, and I have been relieved that neither D22 nor D26 had any interest in Greek life at all. D29 is more social than they are, and I suspect there will be different and more difficult conversations to be had as she gets closer to college. I do realize that Greek letter organizations don’t have a monopoly on any of this, and in fact sports teams or other male-dominated groups may play a similar role on some campuses. Likewise, certain Greek orgs, especially at smaller schools, may have a completely different vibe. What I’m talking about here is the stereotypical “Greek life” at large universities - that’s really what we are usually talking about with that phrase, both on CC and in real life.
The below article illustrates some of this from a female student’s perspective - someone posted it here on CC a few years ago, and I found it so impactful that I revisit it from time to time:
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Agree things should be proven in a court.
However - it is also true that despite the NY law, the Cornell code of conduct states that an intoxicated person is not able to give consent.
Incapacitation/Intoxication: Consent cannot be given by a person who is incapacitated by alcohol, drugs, or sleep, or who is otherwise unaware that sexual activity is occurring.
It is also true that many companies, including my own (a large household name financial services firm) have internal codes of ethics and that people can be fired (or precluded from being hired) based on unethical conduct, not just illegal conduct. So even if it is “just” unethical behavior-and I would note a particularly abhorrent and psychologically damaging form of that - I am sure many women at such companies would feel safer knowing that their company would not employ someone who would not only take advantage of an incapacitated woman but broadcast it. Actions don’t have to be proven criminal in a court of law to have consequences. (As those people who have been fired for making racist comments on social media can tell you.)
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Hi fellas. 
I am a lawyer (nice try at dismissing me, though!). And I do understand the point you thought you were trying to make, but the fact that you went out of your way to make it (and double down on it) and the fact that it ignores a whole lot of other legal aspects (such as the obligation of a DA who prosecutes SA cases to actually investigate them and to know that if a victim comes forward to the DA with allegations like this she is very likely too traumatized to feel comfortable sharing the details and her truth, and is likely to feel somehow that it was her fault).
Yes, your opinion may be “straight forward”, as is mine: your post was gross and totally misses the point and fails to read the room (women are tired tired tired of defending the rapists BS).
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Are you saying you have all the facts at your disposal to criminally prosecute everyone involved? If you want to believe that, go ahead. I understand the anger -which I made myself very clear.
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I think the bigger issue is the NY law, not the Cornell code of conduct. As I stated before, violating the code of conduct gets you kicked out of Cornell.
At this point, Im sure most people are eyeing potential criminal prosecution
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Hopefully these ridiculous loopholes will be legally closed: https://apnews.com/article/cornell-university-rape-allegation-intoxication-laws-b86e2cf18e301e83612c0a0dbdb0cb4b
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I 100% agree.
the Cornell code of conduct relates, I am sure, to why she is suing Cornell. Anyway, I’ve just seen a report that says she distinguishes between what happened earlier in the night and what happened later, that the DA apparently never received from Cornell Police.
According to a transcript of the alleged victim’s interview with campus police, obtained by CBS News New York’s Mahsa Saeidi from a source, Jane Doe distinguished the initial sexual activity from what she says happened later in the night.
She described drinking and using drugs the night of the alleged rape, and said she had gaps in her memory, according to the transcript.
When asked whether she was OK with the initial encounter, she said, “Yeah, as much as I can be because, again, I was super drunk when I got there … But I was pretty OK with all of this.”
When describing what happened later in the night, the transcript says Jane Doe said, "I can say with 100% confidence I was raped."
Tompkins County District Attorney Matthew Van Houten told CBS News Tuesday night that he was never provided the full transcripts of those initial interviews Jane Doe conducted with Cornell school police.
He said the sworn statement submitted to his office in November 2024 made no mention of the statements that were made in the transcript obtained by CBS News New York, specifically Doe telling school investigators, “I can say with 100 percent confidence I was raped.”
Maybe a reminder for those who need it, consent can be given and then it can be withdrawn.
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The civil suit is to compensate the victim (which is important). But for me, if the evidence is there, the real issue is criminal prosecution. I keep going back to it because if proven, these guys should be in jail - anything less is not real justice.
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But it only got 2 perpetrators kicked out of Cornell. The others were asked to write essays - a punishment that my S22 described as appropriate for a 7th grader who cheated on a math test, not a student who sexually assaulted an incapacitated woman.
I don’t profess to know how the legal system works but this is very different than we’ve read before.
I guess the question is - how is a ball dropped that authorities say they never saw this?
I don’t know where it dropped - whether it’s the victim pressing forward if the response was inadequate to the next level or the college police.
I’m not sure the President would be involved - maybe.
I would hope in the 2020s people aren’t trying to bury something like this.
My god.
So very very sad and scary - this could happen to any of our kids.
It certainly seems a breakdown of epic failure.
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I assume, if the report is correct, it will come out at some stage who suppressed that part of the transcript.
To be clear, I was referring to the dressing alike, cliques, dances and other superficial tropes that people glean from TikTok - not the SA’s. My reference to a student’s freedom to choose not to participate in Greek life was in reference those things - not SA’s.
I’ll bet you dinner it wasn’t actively “suppressed.” It was a PDF in two parts, and only part 1 was uploaded. Or it was an email which said “Transcript to follow in hard copy” and the hard copy didn’t include the second part. Or it was accidentally shredded. Or it was misfiled with another case number. Or it was routed to the wrong office where it was discarded.
Evidence is tricky business. It’s only on TV where Olivia Benson dashes in to save the %^& kits which are stored in the snack room before the cleaning staff unplug the fridge. In the real world, stuff gets lost, missing, finally retrieved only to be unusable, documents never make it to the intended audience. Or a motion to suppress the evidence is granted because the chain of custody was broken when the police officer stuck the box on his desk and announced “I’m heading to lunch, I’ll deal with this later”.
This case is heartbreaking on so many levels, but it points out that even without malicious intent (talking about law enforcement here, not the alleged perpetrators) cases go haywire. And if there WAS active collusion (as in- Cornell police decided to slow walk the investigation so that memories would be hazy, evidence would get lost, the furor would die down) that’s going to be VERY hard to prove.
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