Rape and Greek Life (the Cornell 7 specifically, but also SA in Greek Life generally)

Parents Forum
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I saw this on social media. I am not sure who the original author was, but it sure is food for thought.

What Are We Teaching Our Sons?
Very few things in recent times have disturbed me as much as the reported Cornell fraternity rape case.
As a mother of both a son and a daughter, both away at college, I find myself worrying about the safety of both of them. But this incident has made me come back to a deeper question:
What values are we actually teaching our children?
I grew up believing that the most basic rule of being human is simple: you do not harm another human being.
Cultures differ. Traditions differ. Social norms differ. But surely a society can only function if we all share some basic values.
So why, when a young woman is allegedly extremely intoxicated and drugged and multiple men are involved sexually over many hours, are we even having a debate about consent?
At what point did this become complicated?
If someone is incapacitated, vulnerable or unable to protect themselves, shouldn’t the instinct of any decent human being be to help them?
Not exploit them.
Not invite friends.
Not watch.
Not walk away.
Help them.
What has disturbed me almost as much as the allegations themselves is the huge number of young men who were connected to the same fraternity and so many of them may have known something was happening.
These are Cornell students.
They went through a supposedly “holistic” admissions process. They were selected from thousands of applicants as some of the brightest and most accomplished young people in the country.
I am sure many of their applications were filled with leadership positions, community service, charity work, passion projects, awards and glowing recommendations.
Which makes me wonder:
What exactly are we measuring when we call a young person exceptional?
We spend enormous time building our children’s résumés.
SATs. APs. Sports. Music. Internships. Volunteer work. Leadership. Passion projects.
But how much time are we spending building their character?
What kind of upbringing leads a young man to look at an incapacitated woman and see an opportunity for sex instead of a human being who needs help?
What kind of men were their role models?
How did their fathers talk about women?
How did their mothers?
Did they grow up with sisters?
What did they hear at home, in locker rooms, in group chats and online that shaped their understanding of women, sex and power?
And perhaps the most uncomfortable question for parents:
Are some of us raising high-achieving boys without necessarily raising good men?
Because a woman does not become less human because she is drunk.
She didnot stop being human because she took drugs.
She does not lose ownership of her body because she is unconscious, intoxicated or vulnerable.
In fact, that is precisely the moment when the people around her should protect her.
And responsibility cannot stop with the people who directly participate.
What about the people who know and say nothing?
What about friends who watch?
What about fraternity members who hear something disturbing and decide it is “none of their business”?
What about institutions and the officials if they become more concerned with reputational damage than with finding out what actually happened?
Universities should certainly examine their role.
But parents should examine ours too.
Because universities meet our children at 18.
We have them for the first 18 years.
So I keep coming back to the same question:
What are we teaching our sons about women?
Are we teaching them that strength means protecting someone who is vulnerable?
That this is not masculinity?
That another person’s intoxication is never an opportunity?
That consent is not something you search for in a technical loophole after the fact?
And perhaps most importantly:
Are we teaching our children that being a good human being matters more than getting into a good university?
Because if we are focused on producing impressive résumés and but failing to instill empathy, courage and basic human decency in our children, then somewhere along the way, we have completely lost the plot.

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122

Very powerful–and so true. Thanks for posting.

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Sorry - I know people don’t want to hear it but I also wonder what the parents of the victim think. If the original texts are true, she was ok drinking, taking drugs and having sex with two guys.

I’m not clueless - I know that voluntarily happens in life. But I wonder what the parents think.

It’s not relevant to the criminal aspect however. I’m just curious.

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It’s not relevant at all and reeks of victim blaming.

People make bad decisions all the time. It doesn’t give anyone the right to gang rape a woman.

I hope Jane Doe’s parents are giving her nothing but unconditional love and support.

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I don’t see how their opinion, or in fact anyone else’s (though plenty have given it of course) on that matter is relevant. Consenting to one thing doesn’t mean you consent to anything that comes after that.

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I don’t understand. One can wonder what the boy’s parents are thinking but not wonder what the girl’s parents are thinking? How does that make any sense?

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Still baffles me how these clowns get through admissions. One is a mistake, but seven and likely very many more? These are false positives in the admission systems.

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Um, because one is a victim and the others are alleged perpetrators of a crime? If a girl stabbed a boy, would you be wondering about the boy’s parents thinking he “should have behaved better” ?

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I said I was curious.

It’s not victim blaming.

I wouldn’t want to hear my daughter was like that. Nor my son in a consensual situation like that. We all have different standards.

I said outside of the criminal. Personally I’d feel like I failed as a parent.

I have no doubt that most parents would have some level of shame outside the criminal aspects which are horrifying.we all agree I think.

@SJ2727 - not a relevant comparison given how sexual behavior is looked at. The reality is the victims behavior is also likely not seen ans anppropriate by most and it’d be natural if some parents (most honestly) were embarrassed or felt shame. I didn’t tie it to deserving what allegedly happened. Even if nothing criminally ever happened and the parents found out, I’d simply be curious what they thought.

It was a simple comment that many would wonder. It doesn’t deserve a bashing.

The reality is - there’s an alleged crime but there was also actual behavior on both sides that most would think crossed a line and I just wondered what the parents thought.

They could be alarmed at the crime and also be embarrassed at their daughter’s behavior. Or perhaps they aren’t.

There’s zero to do with victim blaming and curiosity, in general, is a natural thing.

I also find it interesting that every time someone makes a comment that doesn’t hold a victim in perfection, someone is called a victim blamer.

I don’t know everyone’s gender here but I’m guessing that’s a gender thing.

I, for one, am not saying the victim deserved anything. Do I think all sides could make it less likely these situations happen. Yes. Practicing safety - for girls and boys - is key.

If someone says, she shouldn’t have put herself in that situation, you call it victim blaming. It’s not.

I’d want my child - either gender - to limit booze, not take drugs, and travel in groups with a designated non drinker. It may not stop all crimes but it’d probably prevent a lot.

By saying that doesn’t mean I’m blaming someone. But I am saying, maybe not this incident, but the totality of incidents can be reduced. It’s preventative - just like any other things in life that do better with preventative behavior.

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Um, you filled in the “behave better” part. That is your judgment, not mine. I am a parent. I do wonder what all of the parents are thinking about all aspects of this situation. The parents have likely sacrificed tremendously to send their kids to an elite college and this happens.

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High school students are under supervision of their parents and schools much of the time, so those with criminal tendencies (or anything else disqualifying from a highly selective college admission point of view) may be limited in acting on them, so they are still “clean” as high school seniors. This does not prevent them from being high achievers in aspects that colleges look for.

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Nuns get raped. Nuns wearing habits get raped. And yet I am told it is hard to get a conviction of someone who has raped a nun- even though her sexual history (non-admissible in most places) is nil, and even though her clothing couldn’t by any stretch of the imagination be described as provocative. Men get raped. And often, their rapists are not gay, or men seeking to have sex with another man. It’s just a violent act against another human being. Him, her, he she.

I find some of this discussion off-putting. It moves the goal post from “a violent act inflicted on someone who couldn’t consent” to “well, once you’re in a threesome anything can happen and her parents must be mortified”.

But if those of us who know people who have been the victims of sexual violence gain more compassion for their ordeal (the original ordeal, and the continuing ordeal, sometimes decades later) this thread is helpful. And a reminder that we never know what another person has been through.

I have a friend who has been in therapy for decades. At a certain point, you’ve got to bite your tongue…“still seeing Dr. Brown?” as you wonder “what the heck has he ever done for you?” But after a while- years in this case- when she shared her story, you gotta admit, “Thank god for Dr. Brown”. This is someone who holds down a job, pays taxes, cleans her house, buys groceries, goes to Pilates and yoga. A fully functioning adult in every way. Thanks to 45 minutes a week with Dr. Brown, where she is still trying to make sense of the narrative that it was somehow her fault (after all, she agreed to have dinner with her attacker, right? And she let him pick up the check, which obviously is the universal sign of “I want you to beat me up”.)

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It’s difficult to predict future behavior/crimes based on the criteria used in college admission. I certainly wouldn’t assume that they have a history of criminal arrests during HS, nor would I assume they had HS behavioral / disciplinary events contained within application. Those type of applicants are unlikely to be admitted. I think it’s far more likely that they got along well with others during HS and had quality LORs / essays, like typical Cornell admits.

Along the same lines, sexual assaults happen at nearly all college campuses, regardless of college admission system. In surveys, something on the order of 1 in 4 women report non-consensual sexual contact during college, and 1 in 9 report non-consensual penetration.

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I think expecting your kid to go off to college and not drink, not be offered drugs at some point and not engage in sex is pretty unrealistic. Yes different people will draw different lines in how far they think they should go - and don’t forget marijuana is legal in many states now so even “don’t do drugs” becomes a grey area even if you don’t consider alcohol a drug - but we also know 18 year olds make bad decisions and it’s easier to make further bad decisions when you’re impaired. If I found out my kid was doing some of the things Jane Doe did - I would be upset, I might even be heartbroken, I would have a talk with them - but I actually don’t think “shame” is what I would feel. I’m trying to think what might happen to make me actually feel ashamed of my kid and the only thing I can really think of is if they deliberately hurt someone else. Ashamed for just making bad decisions, no. Of course this will vary by parent and possibly by how religious that parent is..

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No disagreement but drugs and multiple guys or girls (consensually) - perhaps I’m a prude, but with marijuama I’d be disappointed but I smoked during and after college, but my son or daughter having multiple partners, the same night, would make me - with not a great feeling. Even if not the same night.

In this case, for the daughter, they likely have separated and shown her love. But I’m guessing the boy’s parents are showing love too. Hopefully not justifying but who knows.

I simply noted curiosity. I didn’t need a tongue lashing.

And I’m sure I’m far from alone in my curiosity. And thought.

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I find it actually quite interesting you say that. I suspect too many parents would have a different reaction to finding out their son had been in a threesome with two women, to finding out their daughter had been in a threesome with two guys.

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Most guys would. I don’t know about the child’s parent though. That’s different than a generic guy. But yes my daughter is my little girl. But I’d be appalled at both kids and worried about illness and more. But everyone’s views are different.

But I’m guessing, don’t know, that this girl has issues with her family based on her behavior in the consensual aspects and hopefully support in the criminal aspects. And I’m sure it’s very complicated. But it’s not our place.

But it’s also unfair to constantly tell someone they are victim blaming, which happens here when these stories arise.

As noted many times, I hope the grand jury and authorities come to the right conclusion, whatever it is. We don’t know.

The boys billboard is gross but doesn’t equate with guilt no different than trumps pu$$y comment (disturbing but not criminal).

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Huh? Grabbing a woman without consent is sexual assault.

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Agree to disagree. Strongly.

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Again, you all slam without thinking. He didn’t grab anyone when he said it to Billy Bush.

It was a comment. It was NOT sexual assault when he said grab them by the pu$$y.

The Cornell boys allegedly wrote these disturbing things on a billboard. We have no idea if they did what the billboards implied or at least in a non consensual way.

People on this website have found them guilty without a trial but cleared her. It’s everyone’s right. I wasn’t there. I just hope they get it right in the end.

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