<p>“As I mentioned above, two of my brothers are dream husbands…they make excellent salaries, they cook, they clean, do baby/childcare, will take off work when someone is sick, they drive kids to school, they fix things, they do incredible remodels themselves, etc. Their wives truly have partners who share the full “burden” of homelife.”</p>
<p>But we’ve got to stop treating the guy who does these things as “woah, special” when it should just be the norm. It should be the default that two people share in these things and then delegate as they see fit. I hate to cook; my husband likes to. Why does that make him a “gem”? If my husband hated to cook but I liked to, no one would be in awe. It’s just expected. </p>
<p>Btw, our housekeeper/nanny was not “my replacement” when I worked, because that implies that housekeeping and childcare were my sole responsibility in the first place because I’m the one with the uterus.</p>
<p>I am an immigrant and I can tell you that many immigrants prefer it that way. This way they can collect under the table and receive government benefits. </p>
<p>Those who are here legally and participate in this kind of behavior are not being exploited. They are as culpable as their employers.</p>
<p>But we’ve got to stop treating the guy who does these things as “woah, special” when it should just be the norm</p>
<p>I agree…it should be the norm. But, until then, we’re going to think, “he’s a gem.” </p>
<p>And I don’t think childcare is “mom’s responsibility”. I never liked it when dad’s would say, “I’m babysitting the kids today.” What? You’re not babysitting, you’re parenting.</p>
<p>It should be the default that two people share in these things and then delegate as they see fit</p>
<p>It’s the “how they see fit” that seems to be the issue. lol One spouse may view things very differently than the other. That’s why there are so many resentful working moms out there.</p>
<p>It should be the default that both partners share equally in their families in whatever configuration works for them at a particular time. Which can and should change over the course of a lifetime. However, I feel very strongly that all of our contributions should be honored and appreciated, not taken as the norm and expected. Does it kill me to tell my husband how much I value his driving skills, because I am a menace on the road? No. Not at all. Should it be too much to expect when I made his favorite dinner last night that he should tell me that he was looking forward to it all day and it was as good as he had anticipated? Nope. And both of those things strengthen the bond between us and model gratitude, appreciation and respect for our kids. One of the most important values I hope to impart to my children (and believe I have) is the importance of gratitude. Just because I think my husband should do something doesn’t mean that he has to or will. The fact that so many children in America grow up without fathers in the home shows that there is another choice for men who want to take it. People of either gender who live up to their responsibilities, parent their children all of their lives and stick with their marriages for the long haul should never be taken for granted, no matter what gender they are. Unfortunately, those choices aren’t the default position in our society anymore and should be encouraged, valued and celebrated.</p>
<p>I think we were in an interesting generation. Our mothers were expected to stay home and our dads were expected to support the family financially.</p>
<p>We “got to” choose.</p>
<p>Our daughters will not. They will be expected to work.</p>
<p>How has this impacted men? That’s the bigger question, imho. I saw so many of my friends struggle with husbands who thought their careers were automatically more important, who acted like heroes because they drove a few car pools. I heard too many women praising my husband’s attitude to think he was the “norm.”</p>
<p>It irked me then and it irks me now. You know, when I hear about women who stayed home in our generation who are left by their husbands or who are harrassed for not making more money, it bugs me, too. </p>
<p>When my daughters ask what I think is the most important thing in life, I always say that picking your partner is the most important and setting it up from the start the way you intend to go on. There were definitely times in the early years when it made no financial sense whatsoever for me to be working outside the home. There were conversations, even arguments about this, because H was very financially successful right out of the gate.</p>
<p>The conversations usually ended like this: “If you don’t want to work, then don’t, but I do. I don’t care if you make enough for me not to work. I don’t care if _________ costs as much as I make. You can quit and we can live on what I make.”</p>
<p>It wasn’t always an easy conversation, but I was not cut out to stay at home with the kids. He knew that when he married me. </p>
<p>I think the harder conversations will be between our daughters and their significant others. My daughter makes more than her fiance. She has a great job opportunity in another city, but he is finally doing something he likes and doesn’t want to move. He followed her for a career opportunity. How do they negotiate that? </p>
<p>I should have added that in some ways, it’s never going to be equal because (I think) there’s something about the way women are wired that we think some things are important to do, and men often don’t. </p>
<p>Heck…how many Holiday cards would get sent out each year if women didn’t do them? I know that there are some new H’s that send “thank you notes” out after their weddings, but I know that nearly 100% of the thank-you notes I’ve rec’d over the years were written by the brides. My in-laws would never get gifts for their special days if I didn’t buy them. Sure, some H’s are good about these things, but I bet most aren’t and it will be a long time before they are. Many guys would just say, “forget the cards, don’t sent 'em”…and as for gifts, they’d probably just send checks…and that’s if they actually remember their special days. </p>
<p>And, there are other things as well. I’m sure some of us could name a number of things that men don’t give a rat’s patootie about, but those things make for a nicer, cleaner, more civil home/social circle/community…which is why women are more driven to do them.</p>
<p>I saw so many of my friends struggle with husbands who thought their careers were automatically more important</p>
<p>Yep!! When H’s company moved the whole division to another state, NOT ONE MARRIED FEMALE employee moved. Their H’s wouldn’t agree to change jobs. However, nearly all the male employees moved. Their wives were expected to find new jobs (company did help with that). But, again, not one married woman moved. NOT ONE.</p>
<p>And short-sighted too. If I spent ten or more years of my life working as a nanny, I’d want that credit when it came time for me to retire. You need 40 quarters of full-time work for full social security benefits.</p>
My D is about to be in a similar situation. Her long-term boyfriend is just an all around wonderful guy. Handsome, smart, well-read, totally perfect for her. Except. He has a very messed up family situation that has seriously impacted his ability to work toward his degree. He also got an ok job that is fine for now but will not ever be a family-supporting/career type wage. He seems ok with that. My D is ambitious and has (knocking on wood) some excellent opportunities presenting themselves to her for when she graduates in the spring. The boyfriend is at least two years behind her, although they graduated high school together and he will not travel because he is taking care of both of his loser parents. I see heartbreak written all over this, which is a shame because they are so perfect for each other. I see her struggling with her love for him and her hopes for the future. We talked last night and I told her that long-term, it is very important to respect and admire the man you marry and the lack of those things can seriously damage a relationship.</p>
<p>Exactly, Mom2. So, then, these same husbands will ***** and moan if they have to pay alimony when they leave, or if their wife isn’t making enough money. And the women? Somehow they will feel guilty. </p>
<p>Women are damned if they do and damned if they don’t. </p>
<p>I think there should be a push to hire ex SAHMs the same way there is to hire Vets. These are underpaid and highly important positions our country devalues while relying on completely. No school system runs well without SAHMs. There is such a long list, including the fact that without children, there aren’t going to be any people to pay for the social security of those who do not have kids. And, let me tell you, the young women today don’t see raising kids as a vocation. They aren’t rushing into it and they aren’t feeling they “need” it, either.</p>
<p>Maybe if we treated the SAHM better when they came back to the work force, the whole thing would look like less of a trap to them.</p>
There are no jobs for anyone right now. Not young people coming out of college, not older people who have been downsized, not breadwinners of either gender and not returning SAHMs.</p>
<p>Yeah, I don’t think that’s a “thing” anymore. </p>
<p>But I also think as women make more they don’t automatically get to decide to transfer, whereas when men make more, they do. At least that’s what I saw in our generation.</p>
<p>I think our daughters will be different. I think both partners will have veto power, but it doesn’t make it any easier, maybe a little more difficult to be a “unit.”</p>
<p>*How many of you have husbands who would feel emasculated if you made more than he did? That’s a weirdness I just don’t get.
*</p>
<p>In some ways my H would LOVE IT…lol. But, I know that the first time I objected to a purchase or whatever, I’d probably hear, “Oh, you think because you earn more money, you can veto everything.” lol Right now, I can veto, veto, veto…but if I earned more, H would probably think I’m doing it because I earn more. Crazy, I know.</p>
<p>Yes, I think this may be so. As women are becoming more independent and gain the power to take life on by themselves, there really has to be a commitment to the partner and the relationship to make it work. It’s no surprise women aren’t rushing into marriage and children.</p>
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<p>This is how it was in our marriage, too, Ema. You’d be surprised how typical this is in a traditional marriage. It takes a lot of energy to be financially successful, and if there isn’t enough for paid staff to take over these responsibilities, well, it’s the SAH spouse who takes over.
It’s a dynamic that my kids didn’t quite understand growing up. Why Mom always made the decisions yet Dad was bringing in the income probably seemed a bit odd. Mom always doing the “work” of the house seemed natural, though, as she had the time. What they didn’t get was how linked the work and the decisions are. It’s just more efficient if the one doing everything for the home also has the decision-making power.</p>
<p>And Romani was right to point out the use of the term “full careers.” Meaning two people who were able to reach for the stars without one eventually having to take a backseat to the other in order to balance the family. Of course most families are two income, but I do not believe most families have two career track earners who are making appropriate advances in that career while balancing a family-- not unless they can afford great childcare and that is not the case for most people. It has been mentioned numerous times in this thread how women get put on the mommy track or have to switch to part time or change jobs to accommodate their husbands-- those couples are the ones I was talking about, not SAHP couples. My point was that its not a good idea to rule out a SAHP as an option and teach your kids that women who want to be SAHMs aren’t worth marrying because it is DAMN HARD to balance two careers. Two JOBS maybe not so much, two careers absolutely. Unless your sons want to be the ones to take that back seat they might want to be more open minded. </p>
<p>I work in a career track job, but a very low paying one. There are a few married couples that work here, or whose wives work in similar jobs elsewhere. The only reason they are making it is because their parents provide free childcare. Otherwise, they couldn’t. My sister doesn’t work because the cost of childcare is more than she can earn and they can’t afford to take a loss until they’re all in school. To push SAHMs as unmarryable is really stupid, IMO. You are saying “be prepared for your career to take a backseat, or to force your wife to.” Most people are not lucky enough to have flexible jobs that allow a perfect balance, and marriage doesn’t work that way.</p>
<p>That is true and therein lies part of the problem. To be “equal” implies sharing the “to do” list. Whose “to do” list? Well, if it is the female’s “to do” list then there is inequality since her wishes prevail. And, vise versa. </p>
<p>From the years of divorced with child, I know that my list results in an acceptable environment. When I remarried we had the financial luxury of being able to do couples counseling before and after the “I do’s.” </p>
<p>We have made (and modify) an “our list.” We have divided that up the way we agree works best. For instance I am the food preparer of most of the evening meals. That is because I like to cook and was a chef and restaurant owner prior to law school.</p>
<p>Then there are the things that are not on the “our list” but are important to one of us. If the one that it is important to would like help, it is up to that person to speak up and make a request but it is agreed that it is not a disloyalty for the other to decline the request.</p>
<p>And, as zoosermom mentions, verbal acknowledgement and appreciation expressed to the other spouse for the things on their list that make both lives better is “the glue.”</p>
<p>This subject and this thread always reminds me of the saying “look out for what you wish for . . . .”</p>