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<p>Right there with you!</p>
<p>…though I have zero memory of other women, friends or family or strangers, making judgements or snide comments about my mothering or working or not working or whatever.</p>
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<p>VaBluebird, your observation (as well as mom2’s) is spot on. When people are sure of themselves and have few regrets, they don’t need to validate their choices by impugning those of others.</p>
<p>"“I could never breastfeed because then I’d be stuck with most or all of the feedings. Plus, you never really know how much the baby has eaten. And, I don’t want to have to worry about having a glass of wine.” - I don’t see that is much of a dig at breast feeding mom. Most of it is just seems an honest admission that breastfeeding would cramp her style…plenty of SAHM make the same choice.</p>
<p>I’m late to the party too but I wanted to add my perspective. When the kids were little, I worked for a law firm that allowed 60% and 80% employment status. My children had medical issues so I opted for 60% workweek to free me up for doctor visits and/or sick days. I lived for nearly a decade with one foot in the work force and one foot in the SAHM world. I never fit into either and both groups made sure of that. </p>
<p>I had plenty of friends but no one at the office took me seriously. They treated me kind of like you might treat a temporary employee, I was pretty much invisible. It was a global firm so if you weren’t all in 24/7/365, you were pretty much out. The perception was that I chose the lazy way out by working only 60%; some weeks or even months I was out completey due for family leave. While the mommy and me groups never included me in their reindeer games. They either got together while I was at work or they excluded me perhaps because I was only half a “real” mommy like them. </p>
<p>When I ventured out on my own to the park on my days off when the kids were well, I would sit on the swingset watching the kids alongside the neighborhood nannies. My kids don’t look at all like me so they all just assumed I was a nanny too, just an American one haha. Those were lonely years filled with feelings of doubt and inadequacy. I really don’t know why women “friends” can be so judgmental and ostracizing. I hope it’s different for my DD but with all this “leaning in” talk it’s doubtful.</p>
<p>SalveMater, </p>
<p>It is a big worry for me for my D, as well. </p>
<p>You have kids young, lose out on career advancement. Take time out later, your colleagues and employer will not always take you as seriously. </p>
<p>I used to think that it was going to be easier for my generation of women, but I do not know. It was not all that easy.</p>
<p>*"“I could never breastfeed because then I’d be stuck with most or all of the feedings. Plus, you never really know how much the baby has eaten. And, I don’t want to have to worry about having a glass of wine.” - </p>
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I don’t see that is much of a dig at breast feeding mom. Most of it is just seems an honest admission that breastfeeding would cramp her style…plenty of SAHM make the same choice.
*</p>
<p>You have to consider the context. A mom is quietly nursing, not saying a word about it. The other mom, out of nowhere, just offers this. It’s not as if the BF mom asked for opinions or comments.</p>
<p>And the comment about “not knowing how much the baby has eaten” is meant to suggest that the BF mom may not be feeding her baby enough.</p>
<p>Reverse the scenario… The bottle-feeding mom is quietly nursing her baby. The BF mom, out of nowhere says, “I could never give my baby formula. You don’t really know if it’s good enough for brain development. I don’t have to worry that my baby isn’t getting the nutrients that he needs.”</p>
<p>The point is that the person doing the talking is “smack talking”. In each case, the mom has made a decision based on what’s best for her family. The unsolicited comments serve no purpose. They aren’t made in the spirit of “goodwill”. </p>
<p>Now if these are two friends who are deciding which choice to make and they’re listing the pros and cons to consider, then it might be different. But, once a person is acting on her choice, commentary like the above is rude.</p>
<p>Mom2collegekids,
Where is the <em>like</em> button. All of your posts have been spot on and insightful.</p>
<p>I tend to look at people like that as not knowing better. Seriously, you could think those thoughts to yourself, but as mature adults you use some filters before you speak.</p>
<p>Right. To me, the takeaway is - that person is a boor, not - omg, that person is judging my choices. If someone is a boor, I don’t really care what they think of my choices, since I don’t respect their opinion in the first place.</p>
<p>All that stuff about breastfeeding is true. You are “stuck” with the feedings, it does cramp your style. So how is that a criticism? I chose it anyway. With my eyes open. Of course there was the oxytocin.</p>
<p>When I’ve been asked (which is rude in and of itself ) why I worked when my husband made so much money, my standard reply was, “I’m not cut out to stay at home”. It felt like the least judgemental comment I could make to such a judgemental question. Kept it on me and off of them. </p>
<p>But that question isn’t something anyone ever asked my H later when either of us could have stayed at home. We were a transitional generation. We had choices and those choices raised questions. Those questions wouldn’t have bothered any of us if we weren’t asking ourselves the same things at least on some level. </p>
<p>I just don’t think our girls will be asked the same things. Society will blame them for everything some other way. It was probably easier when it was just Eve and that pesky apple. :p</p>
<p>I never heard any negative feedback of any kind in all the years I was a SAHM. I couldn’t have cared any less if there had been and I would also not have any respect for anyone who could jump to those kind of conclusions. No one is equipped to judge another person’s unique situation. </p>
<p>Someone did once tell me that she could never be as secure as I seemed about her own sense of self worth if she didn’t work outside the home, but she really meant it as an honest reflection of herself. I don’t think all comments of that nature are meant as passive aggressive insults, although some clearly are.</p>
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<p>Well, you’ve obviously never met my overbearing, socially-challenged coworker who asked me, “Why are you back at work so soon?” (I took six months off after the birth of my D). “Don’t you know how harmful that is to your baby?”</p>
<p>This is the same joker who later told me that my family wasn’t “real” because H and I only had one child. Believe me, no one ever asked this guy for his opinion; he was just happy to share his opinions willy-nilly.</p>
<p>Never underestimate the tone-deafness (stupidity?) of some people.</p>
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<p>Well, you’re in a place, and another person who learns about your childrearing practices is in the same place, and a negative comment jumps out of that person’s mouth.</p>
<p>For example, I was in my primary care doctor’s office, about 9 months after having my first baby, and I told him I was still breastfeeding. I was trying to be responsible because I knew that the fact that I was breastfeeding could affect the choice of drugs he could prescribe for me. This elicited the response, “You should have weaned that baby by now. My wife only breastfed for 6 months, and that’s all that’s necessary.”</p>
<p>I like the response,“that turns out not to be the case.” Maybe people were criticizing my childrearing choices and I was too oblivious to notice. Maybe I didn’t care.</p>
<p>It is amusing that some of us have had discussions about working outside the home/birth choices and even breast feeding. When we had our first we lived in the valley, Sherman Oaks area. Mommy and Me…it was so pc that we talked about how we gave birth and how wonderful we all were to have given birth naturally.</p>
<p>I had a c section and yes…I used drugs. One woman said, hopefully, that at least during labor I didn’t have drugs because of the damage that I could have done to my child. Another woman had to drop out of the class to join the Better Baby snack food…full grain crackers with cheese.</p>
<p>We moved to a “better” part of the valley for the next child. The most vivid memory? Whether we could bring our housekeepers to serve snacks…and yes, we all agreed that we would never work outside the house. That would take time away from the “me” time.</p>
<p>For our last child we moved back to the westside. We went to the creme de la creme Mommy and Me. Drugs…good…c sections…terrific (only if you had a tummy tuck on the table). EVERYTHING was an issue: </p>
<p>I decided to add a new phrase to my responses, “Thank you for sharing” “Fascinating” And, “thank you for your input.”</p>
<p>I was raised by a full time teacher mother, who could stay at home during the time we were out of school, but I was a latch key kid during the school year. My dad also worked full time, but managed a 24x7 power plant, so that a constantly changing schedule (swing shift changed every 2 weeks) was a physical hardship on us as he slept at weird hours. I learned to be very independent from the time I went to kindergarten and was expected to contribute to household chores and my working mother even paid me $20 per week to vacuum and dust the house which was a lot of money then and a lifesaver for her. Because she was working, she allowed me to paint my room myself, do my own laundry, be responsible for my own homework and taught me to grocery shop and care for the house, since she was not able to handle it all. My dad taught me how to use tools and fix and build things and repair cars. I am sort of glad about this because, as the youngest of five children, my parents did not helicopter me, (they were worn out) and were happy I seemed to become independent due to their working circumstances. (My mother’s extra income paid for college for five children and she worked full time, when SAHMs were the norm) I myself have always worked full time while using child care and I was actually kind of bored from being a stay at home mom for the time I was home (a one year leave of absence benefit from my company) that even though I worried about quality childcare, it was the best thing for me to return to work and quality child care is full of enriching activities with other kids. There was still plenty of time for us to be together and we are very close. I am happy that I didn’t give up working full time, despite some of the hardships of of being a working mom, (was tempted a few times) I have fostered a sense of independence, confidence and responsibility in my own kid due to necessity of us not always being there. I also have a great pension plan, 401K and health insurance package waiting for me when I choose to retire. I really even like my job and with D away at college, I am grateful to have a place to work to contribute and socialize, since being empty nested is a bit lonesome at times. Not all daycare is evil and with a good partner, it can be quite manageable to share the load, raise kids and get it all done. Life is a challenge and trade offs are mandatory. Nothing’s perfect.</p>
<p>My wife was a full-time SAHM from the time our first-born was about 2 until our youngest was out of HS. Despite some ups and downs, it worked for us. Every family has to make its own choices but we don’t regret ours. </p>
<p>In our large extended family, we’ve seen many other arrangements. The one that often ends badly is a divorce with children involved. While I would not want to go back to the days when peer pressure trapped women in bad marriages, I do think more peer pressure is needed when divorced spouses (usually the dad) fail to provide support.</p>
<p>My niece lives in a midwestern state. Her toddler’s father is in New York. A few days ago the cops showed up at his door with handcuffs. They gave him 2 choices. Pay up or get locked up. He immediately forked over what he owed. That was about 10X as much as her mother ever got from her ex. It took gumption for my niece to drive to NY to present the court a ream of evidence and insist on her due. She nearly backed down because she did not want to seem “vindictive” or alienate the guy from their kid.</p>
<p>Many judges have no patience whatsoever with deadbeat dads, but first they need to hear the case. Sadly, many women don’t stand up for their rights. This is one issue that takes a village to encourage the mother. The deadbeat invariably has his own enablers. His mother, his new wife, or his drinking buddies reinforce the attitude that the ex-partner is a gold-digger or a she-wolf. This attitude needs to be confronted with strong pressure from friends, family, and employers that child support isn’t optional.</p>
<p>Late to the party. </p>
<p>I’m a lawyer and single mom w sole custody of a young middle school kid and the very best thing I did for me, when I was pregnant, was to take a government job “below me” with tons of flexibility and great benefits. It’s not glamorous especially as my former cohorts have moved to partnership and the money is not very good. I took a 40% pay cut over 12 years ago and recouped under 5% since. BUT I telecommute/leave early to drive carpool three times a week, splitting with another mom, have more than 6 weeks a year vacation time and I can afford a small house and decent lifestyle. If I weren’t, sadly, still paying student loans on my education the money would be better. But student loans, like choosing a partner, is something I know better about now that I have “been there done that.” During my divorce six years ago I considered getting a firm job again but worried about the impact on my daughter who was then in kindergarten. She was in montessori and loved it, so that wasn’t the 9-6 concern so much as all the “other stuff” (the stress or ramping up and working on weekends etc) that I was worried about. </p>
<p>The thing it comes down to for me is this job allows me to parent how I want to on almost all days…school days, school breaks, spelling bees and sick days…and I don’t wake up with an elephant on my chest from stress. </p>
<p>As to the other women thing, man, I couldn’t live without my other mom friends. At least once a week one of us covers for each other with rides or something. I love them and wouldn’t live without them.</p>
<p>My older sister’s father is one of those deadbeats. They divorced when my now 30-something year old sister was a toddler and never paid a cent of child support. The courts have been pursuing him for years. They threatened him, he didn’t care. They garnished his wages, so he stopped working. They put him in jail, so he sat in jail-- after evading arrest for as long as possible. He’s sat in jail lots of times and most of the time if he’s not in jail he’s on the run. He doesn’t care. He has disappeared off the face of the planet now and nobody in his own family knows where he is, we suspect he is dead. There’s only so much you can do. </p>
<p>I know two different women who are undergoing divorce proceedings now and both men initially said wife could take the kids, he wants nothing to do with them, he wont pay child support, if wife pursues it he will never see the kids again and they will not have a father anymore, etc and so forth-- and then when the wives pursued it anyway they both said they were trying to go for primary custory to “get back” at the wives-- which it sounds like the judges laughed at and neither one of them got what they wanted. It’s like both men are operating out of the same deadbeat manual for emotional blackmail. Women in this situation need a lot of help and support. </p>
<p>This thread prompted me to bring up the pre-nup converstion with my fiance yesterday so that we can look into formalizing our verbal agreement of what would happen if we were to divorce. We need to get some good advice about how we should set that up, so that is our next project.</p>