Rejected Stanford SCEA: Chances at Harvard?

waitn184 · March 5, 2009, 12:53am

I agree with science fiction. He was clearly referring to the “Elite Class IN China” and not the American Chinese community from the start! This can apply to all races and even people who have lived in the US for a while! Many applicants are overly pressured by their parents to get into the Ivies.

I also got the impression the applicant is a college app robot. She should not list her school-related awards because they do not matter! She also has the usual college Extra-curriculars and nothing special- NHS, Class Council, etc. Why does she list Class Council President and then Class Council? They want quality of activities not quantitiy! I also agree with the fancy names for activities which do not matter (Habitat for Humanity in the Philippines,etc.) Just working at a local soup kitchen will do! In terms of community service, it is about quantity (amount of hours, but the same activities! Not a laundry list of activities!) and not quality (e.g. I went to China to personally help out the earthquake victims!).

In general, I can not depict you as a person! I see no passion in anything that you do; I see no specific academic strengths in your application nor your passion in those strengths through activities!. I see no personal non-academic interests either! (play an instrument, involved in stocks and school investment club, love to act in school plays and actively involved in the school’s film club, play a sport!, etc.) There is also a lack of extraordinary awards/ activities (national academic awards in China, etc.). And you do not show how you serve your LOCAL community through several years of similar/ the same community service actitivites! (e.g. I have worked at our local soup kitchen for the past four years).

I also heard that Harvard (maybe the case is the same for Standford) only accepted 2 applicants from China last year. So if you are not even ranked in the top two spots at your local school, how are your going to gain one of the two spots for all of China !?

Vividi · March 5, 2009, 6:10am

Haha firstly, I’m not a Chinese. And those two applicants who are accepted to Harvard are actually from our school - with similar sort of stats and ECs. I’m not trying to be a college app machine or anything like that - I’m just interested in everything almost in a same manner. And I DO have nonacademic activities - I’ve been a Guzheng player (a traditional Chinese instrument) and the President of the Chinese orchestra, and enjoyed every bit of it. Throughout my four years of high school I have also been very dedicated in Kendo, which is a Japanese Swordsmanship - I have participated in various interregional competitions, and it IS something that I truly enjoy - it’s my 7th year playing it. And whoever said the school’s giving out a bunch of academic distinctions - you are DEAD wrong. only ONE person can receive the academic distinction for each of the subject areas. I enjoyed every single part of my high school life, both academically and non-academically; I have no idea how I am to be called an Asian machine because I thought I was one of the furthest away from it. I have done what I wanted to do, and have tried to show what I have enjoyed.

Vividi · March 5, 2009, 6:42am

And about claiming that my parents have shaped me into a robot - they have NEVER forced me to do ANYTHING; they simply tried to support whatever I wanted to try out as a curious kid. If my parents were the typical rich Asian parents that you are talking about, Science Fiction, then I would never have stopped playing cello when I was in sixth grade, stopped playing piano when I was in seventh grade, stopped playing tennis when I was in fourth grade…throughout my life I always wanted to try this and that, and it was towards the end of my middle school years that I began to find things that I truly enjoy, which happen to be very diverse - or, as you want to claim it, “everywhere and unfocused.” But that IS just the way I am, I am interested in all sorts of fields, and I dont think any particular colleges ONLY look for students that are extremely talented in ONE field. And you were saying that my ECs are products of my parents’ project just because they do not resonate with my intended major? Well, the financial crisis and poverty (literally no furnitures or whatsoever in the house) I went through at a young age first sparked my interest in Economics, and it has continued till now especially because I’ve been taking IB economics and it’s a whole lot of fun. I also voluntarily work for a nongovernmental organization that launches developmental projects in different parts of China because I know how it feels like living in poverty and hopelessness, at least to a certain extent. And I DID try to talk about all these in my essays, if you’d pardon me, although whether it’s going to work or not is another question. Well my point is, I have done whatever I had done -which aren’t all that great compared to many of the CCers out there, I know- with genuine interest and passion, NOT out of parents’ persuasion as you try to conclude without proof. Thanks.

science_fiction · March 5, 2009, 3:00pm

OP,

the problem is, regardless of what your intention/passion was and whether it was your parents your you who initiated all these, your package strongly gives the impression that this was a resume put together solely for the sake of college application using abundant family resources, rather than a resume that reflects the real person behind with genuine passion for important things in his/her life.

Most glaring is your summer 2008 activity list: all amazing sounding stuff, each of which could easily consume the whole summer and beyond if you pursued them with passion. But they are all over the map with no relations/connections with each other, and ALL IN THE SAME SUMMER. That is a dead give away that your family connection got you in the door of these great sounding institutions/activities, and you just went there and put a check mark. This sounds like a desperate last minute attempt to manufacture EC resume in the summer before you apply to colleges

So, out of the blue, you have amazing bio research in a research center in Korea? You showed no previous interest/passion/background on this subject matter and your intended major is economics - what could you possibly have done to contribute to research, other than registering your name and shuffling paper? Then an intern at Seoul Press Center? And, mock UN? And you had the time left over to go to Harvard for the summer program? What does that tell me? It tells me that you are a dabbler with a family that has connections and money to let you in on some pretty interesting sounding activities, and you just went there for a few days at a time and put a check mark on your college resume. There is no indication any where that you have a few things you feel passionate about and actually followed through with a genuine interest and dedication to produce meaningful results for your self and for others. It all comes across as a fancy packaging with no substantive content inside.

This is how you come across. Regardless of what’s the reality, this is how you look to the adcoms. Note that in many times, different adcoms end up playing the role of advocate/adversary on behalf of the candidate. If I were an adcom, I would oppose the idea of accepting you, and my argument explained above would be near airtight so that another adcom advocating you would have a really hard time defending you.

That’s why I said in my earlier post that your essays would be a crucial factor: if you convey the impression that you are NOT a dabbler with great family connections and money, but rather you have a genuine passion for what matters to you, then you would have a good chance. If your essay was written in such a way that dispels my suspicious above, then you are in a good shape.

But, given that Stanford outright rejected you, rather than deferred you to RD, I am afraid that your total package was more or less perceived by the adcoms the way I perceived it.

Any way, good luck, I hope you applied to a wide variety of schools. There are schools that would welcome you with open arms simply based on your stats and the fact that you seem to have an exotic background. It’s just that Harvard, Princeton, Yale type schools have a much larger group of kids with true academic excellence and TRUE passion and initiative to choose from.

oreogasms · March 5, 2009, 8:34pm

I fully agree with science fiction. OP, I’m not trying to say that you aren’t dedicated to your activities, as I don’t think it’s particularly fair to judge someone based on a couple of posts on the internet. That being said, a lot of your activities do give the impression of being college resume fillers associated with familial connections.

I am a second-generation Asian American. My mother, who was from a relatively well-off family and went to all the top schools in Asia, was an example of an Asian machine, and as she describes it, it was quite common among others in her country to be as well. Of course, she genuinely had passion for some of courses she studied, but basically, every day her schedule would be at school by 7, after school go to study classes offered by the teachers, and then perhaps arrive back home by 11. Everyday, lather, rinse, repeat. Of course, that was a few decades ago, and since then things have changed, namely that students are also now expected to have a slew of extracurriculars as well as amazing grades.

As a child, I did a bunch of activities, and while my parents never forced me to pursue all of them, some of the time I did feel like they were trying to build me into a well-rounded person, complete with a number of fancy (and sometimes costly) rewards that would fit nicely on my resume. And although they no longer push me to do so as much, it’s already been programmed into me that I’m expected to be at the top in academics and participate in various activities. For example, I hate band. I’ve been playing in it for years and years anyway, however, namely because I know it’s something that can supplement my resume. While my parents actually don’t really care for band much, sometimes I feel as if it’s something that I do because I’ve been reminded so many times of how many accomplishments I should have. How many times have your parents inquired to not only as to how well you did on a test, but rather how well everyone else did (As in, it doesn’t matter if I got a 95% on a test if two other people got 97%)? Or how many times have they told you about how their friend’s son is a genius and got into Princeton or Harvard or Stanford, or is making a few hundred thousand a year right out of college, or things about other people? It’s subtle, but my parents have done it enough for me to know that it’s not a matter of how smart I am, but how smart I am compared to everyone else in my class. And I go to a school that regularly ships off 30-50 kids to ivy leagues (and their MIT/Stanford equivalents) every year, if that’s any indication of my competition. My school is one that has been regularly mentioned in large magazines and reputable books for our prestige and competition, and it is made of predominantly of the white upper-upper-middle class, with perhaps a 10% Asian population and less than 1% African American population. And yet, of the top ten smartest (GPA-wise and in general), half are Asian, and all of those Asians have a list of accompanying extracurriculars. While some of the other white half have a lot of impressive extracurriculars, two or three of them do no other sports, music, drama, etc.

My point is that, while there are just as many and more Asian slackers, the other Asians applying to schools like Harvard have very similar qualifications to OP’s, and no doubt, at least from what I’ve garnered from talking with the “prestigious” Asians at my school, have some part of the Asian-machine-quality programmed into them.

That being said, you’ve done some impressive stuff, and you have good grades. Getting in to a good school is, for everyone and Asians especially, a matter of luck, and you’ll know where you’re going in a few weeks. Until then, all you can do is wait. :)

science_fiction · March 5, 2009, 10:02pm

Oreogas,

The 7 AM - 11 PM lather, rinse, and repeat routine is worse now than your mothers time.

It used to be just exams. Now, it’s not only good grades, but all sort of extracurriculars that are supposedly there to ensure you a well rounded, psychologically healthy person, not just test taking machines. These well meaning EC requirements are now a do or die competitive subject matter. Kids are are now taking special tutoring lessons (very expensive) for drama, phys ed, and YES interview skills complete with voice coaching and presentation skills. Like taking tutoring sessions that teach you how to have fun complete with step by step instructions and exams at the end to make sure you get it!!! Like taking lessons to learn systematically how to be spontaneous!!!

These kids in the Asian elite community apply to HYP type schools. They are just as much of a mass conveyor belt products of the system. Only, in this case, they are limited edition (for HYP) - special, yes, but nevertheless manufactured according to the specification, not a free form, free will symbol of spontaneity and individual quirks. I am not saying that everybody is like this. I am saying that the majority of kids are like this. Every year, somebody who made it to Harvard publishes a how-to cook book, which becomes a best seller that guides all the mothers to drill their own kids to follow the recipe with uttermost precision.

Top college adcoms know all about this, and this makes them rather weary of reading hyper pumped up college resumes coming from Asian kids, especially certain communities.

For ambitious Asian applicants to the top college, I suggest, try to be an iconoclast and buck the trend, you will have a much better chance.

waitn184 · March 5, 2009, 10:18pm

Previous post was a good one. I apologize for judging you off of an internet post, I should have not done that to begin with. If trying out new things and participating in a plurality of activities is truly what you love to do, than you are a more qualified candidate; however, Harvard receives tons of applicants who are machine Asians and have a plurality of Extracurriculars similar to what you have (and beyond what you have as well).

ALL ASIANS, who apply to Harvard, have to show they are diverse in their own way (and not just the typical self reserved (only help others for community service), introverted, fun fleeing applicant robots. Sorry about describing you as Chinese, I did not refer back to your original post in a while when I wrote my post. Anyways, I believe Asian applicants have to dispel the “robot applicant” label in order to gain admissions, and I just do not see you doing this in your application. The fact that you come from an elite Asian family also does not help your chances of dispelling this label. I believe you when you claim your parents do not control your life, but the adcoms probably will not see that since they do not have the opportunity to know more about you as a person (as we get to do here on this CC thread).

I truly believe you are a qualified candidate (by my own judgement, not my guess of the adcom’s judgment). Some people here on CC assume the worst when they see you are a high income Asian applicant, and I am sure you know why by now. I liked how you mentioned the fact that you were poor at one time! That kind of stuff allows me to see you as a person. It also shows that you are probably not just some arrogant applicant ignorant of those less fortunate around because you can relate to those people! Anyways, sorry about the negativity of my other post. But I really do not think you can get into Harvard, because you are an international applicant from China (they only accept about 2 applicants a year there)

Finally, the school related awards do not matter. Even though those awards are only awarded to one student at your school, the awards will most likely not impress top colleges which are looking for regional/state/national awards.

Good luck! Just remember everyone has a chance, ahah (5-6%)?

Keshira · March 5, 2009, 11:39pm

lol, you make it sound like a cult!

I think the OP has great chances at Harvard, btw, for an international But don’t bet on it.

science_fiction · March 6, 2009, 12:26am

Indeed, if you are applying from Asia to places like Harvard, you have to belong to the ULTRA elite community to be able to do this. In order to send a child to a very selective, pricey English speaking High School that follows the International curriculum, the family has to be able to afford annual tuition that is several or dozen times over the average family income of that country. In many cases, even if you have the money, you can’t even get in unless you are VERY WELL connected. Once accepted into a private top university in USA, the price tag grows further. In most cases, financial aids are not available for international students, so the family has to pay a full expense to the tune of $50K and over. This is 10-20x of the income per capita, depending on the country. So, if this is not an indication of ultra elite, what is?

There is no such thing as international candidates who are disadvantaged - especially from non-English speaking countries.

Be thankful that you are a citizen of a country where schools like Harvard give full ride need based financial support to provide wonderful opportunities to those with the down trodden background.

waitn184 · March 6, 2009, 12:32am

Haha; Not everyone who is wealthy and Asian is necessarily an applicant robot (the OP might not actually be one, but his original post suggests just that), but a good amount tend to become such heartless souls who will except no less than an (HYPSM) acceptance. Of course, we are talking about Asians in Asia or in some cases first generation Asian parents in the US and in very few cases, 2nd generation Asians and those after; as science fiction stated, Asians who come to the US usually will decrease in top school obsession (to the point of turning their children into applicant robots).

I should have made this more clear before denouncing wealthy Asians. But, those who fall under the above description can be described as a cult! First of all, they are so obsessed with gaining admissions for their children that they radically alter the lifestyle of their family in order to persue this purpose. They brainwash their children into thinking their is nothing more to life than academic success (this is why they do not bother making friends/ enjoying life). The fact that this irresponsible obsession leads to a good amount of suicides (whether accepted or denied to their preferred college), shows how severe of a “cult” this really is. Even if they do not commit suicide, I do not see how one enjoys life without friends and some fun! Life is all about ups and downs; with this lifestyle, there are only downs.

waitn184 · March 6, 2009, 12:37am

Science Fiction, just wondering, what schools did you apply to, where have you gotten in already (ED?), and what is your first choice?

science_fiction · March 6, 2009, 12:45am

Got an EA from a pretty prestigious school. After I got that, I did not bother to apply to safeties and matches. The RD schools are, well, you can guess. For the sake of protecting myself from potential heartache, I am assuming that I will get rejection letter from ALL the RD schools. I presented myself as an “interesting” case that is definitely deviating from the norm big time. My first choice is, well, like most of yours…

Vividi · March 6, 2009, 9:54am

Well the thing is, Science fiction, Harvard Summer School was a 4 week course. That means I had 8 weeks left to try out things I like and enjoy. As a chief editor of a newsletter for 2-3 years, I decided to apply for an internship at the Korea Press center to find out how journalism works in the real world. And it just happened to be that I got in. And about the biological research - just because my intended major is economics, does that mean I can’t be a science lover? Science has always been one of my strongest subjects, and yes, I participated in the genetic enginnering portion of the current ongoing research in the research lab. I worked there for 6 hours everyday, from 2pm to 8pm, after interning at the Korea Press Center from 8am to 1pm, which was around 5 hours. I do not understand why you have to assume so many things in a negative manner - that I simply checked my name off some list and things like that. I honestly think that you are looking at me in a bad light just because of my parents’ income and their “connections,” as you say, which I am not interested in and have no control over.

science_fiction · March 6, 2009, 11:13am

don’t read your mind. All they have is what your supplied to them. I was showing you how you look to the outsiders based on what you supplied to them. They don’t have any twisted agenda to “interpret negatively” everything about you, nor do I. I am just reacting to/commenting on how you presented yourself, as adcoms would. The fact that Stanford outright rejected you was no mystery to me based on what I read.

Hope your essays told a more nuanced story and dispelled the impressions your other package was giving to the readers… This discussion would have been much more productive before you submitted applications for RD, but alas, it’s too late.

Anyway, good luck. I have no ill will toward you… Just couldn’t ignore the thread, because everyone says getting admission to HYPS type schools is a crap shoot, which I largely agree, but your case was so obvious…

science_fiction · March 6, 2009, 1:37pm

some how, my above post was truncated. It started with

OP,

If anything, your post above just validates my points, and demonstrates that my observation is right on the mark. If you don’t understand where I am coming from, it’s understandable that you packaged yourself in this manner. If you were primed to see the points raised not only me but several other posters, you wouldn’t have put together your package this way, nor would you have even spent the last summer the way you did.

In my case, I actually deliberately omitted some second tier activities of mine to avoid giving the impression of a dabbler whose interest lies in stuffing a resume.

College adcoms do not know you. They don’t read your mind.

(the rest is above)

Helicio · March 6, 2009, 2:57pm

OMG SF you are so annoying please leave the poor guy alone.

P.S.–I think you have great chances, OP!

canonind · March 6, 2009, 4:00pm

^ the OP is a girl! :D

vividi, I think your stats are definitely impressive.
we hear stories of people rejected by yale, accepted by harvard, rejected by uchicago, accepted by MIT, etc. all the time.

but i think you should just sit back and wait 20 something more days.
your stats are impressive, and because of that, you should have great chances everywhere. but regardless of what i or sciencefiction or whoever says, the decision will definitely be shocking. if it’s bad - yeah; freakin depressed. if it’s good - you’ll be like oh dammm its harvard i didn’t kno i could do it! you kno?

wait for it!

fishgills · March 18, 2009, 12:54am

I strongly agree with what sciencefiction has said. But like everything else, it’s a matter of perspective. I doubt anyone’s opinions will change just because a different one is argued, no matter how clearly it is expressed. Until we have done thousands upon thousands of hours of study on this “phenomenon”, we are only going by what our individual experiences have taught us. And even after that, the question of what it is like to be Asian-American or how life is for really any mixing of cultures, is not something to be solved.

I am a Chinese-American female. Personally, I feel a strong pride for not looking like “a robot” on my applications. And I do believe there are prejudices to fight in all facets. In general, the worst thing about college applications is that you are handing your hopes and dreams into the hands of people whom you don’t know. You don’t know how they think and you can’t assume what type of student they will want. Being any race, you have stereotypes to fight. In all instances, the best you can do is make yourself stand out and make yourself a desirable applicant, showing that you have intellect and innovation to offer. At the end of an admissions office day, it’s about what the college can gain from having you there more than it is the other way around.

jamescchen · March 19, 2009, 7:42pm

It’s possible that Henry Park looked like a thousand other Korean kids with the exact same profile of grades and activities and temperament. [I could] understand why a university would take a celebrity child, legacy, or development admit over yet another textureless math grind. - Marilee Jones, ex-MIT Admissions Director on why a Korean-American applicant to [insert school name here] was rejected

Try to fight that. But Asian-American kids do succeed in large numbers. They just have to try harder, or make themselves look “different” than the stereotype. How do you convince someone that you are not a robot, but without actually saying: “I am a human being, not a robot!”? That’s the $64,000 question.

waitn184 · March 19, 2009, 8:27pm

Well for starters, you can play a sport (not ping pong!!). You can have some more service oriented extra-curriculars than academic extracurriculars (math/science olympiads, etc.). Maybe do something unique (this goes for any applicants) like participating in a dance team.

It pretty much come down to showing you have a passion/talent in a non-academic extra-curricular.

I would not take my advice if you are Asian, this is all speculation.

Rejected Stanford SCEA: Chances at Harvard?

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