Religion and Verification

<p>Are we still allowed to talk about religion on these boards? If so,
I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday, and he said the thing that bothers him about religion is verification. When an event happens, how come it isn’t confirmed in other people’s writings?</p>

<p>Jesus came back from the dead. That’s a pretty big story (to put it mildly). Was that written about by other historians at the time? If so, who?</p>

<p>Why do Jewish and Christian people think that Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac and the Muslims think God was going to sacrifice Ishmael? Seems something as major as this, people would be in agreement. It’s God’s story. </p>

<p>Do the Egyptians write about the Parting of the Red Sea? Do they believe this happened? </p>

<p>How do the Chinese and Asians fit into the whole God thing. Why are they excluded from the biblical stories?</p>

<p>I guess from your posting that your friend is either a-religious or irreligious. In either case, he or she would also presumably have to make sense out of the world with some god-less world view, just as another person would have to make sense of the world while considering religion.</p>

<p>Either there is something supernatural in the world or there is not. If you believe that there is not, then you are required to have faith in science to explain away the many amazing coincidences, miraculous healings, and unexplained phenomena that have ever occurred in the world. You may be able to convince yourself, for example, that 100 percent of all miraculous healings that have ever occurred can be explained by modern science or will at least some day be able to be explained away. I personally have a hard time believing this (and I certainly understand science better than most, with a PhD in engineering from MIT).</p>

<p>An atheist must also be able to dismiss the revelations related to religions such as Christianity, such as the Christian belief that NO ONE IS WITHOUT SIN. Again, perhaps you have met someone in your lifetime who has always done the right thing 100 percent of the time on all occasions. But my experience is completely compatible with Christianity. It seems from an evolutionary standpoint, it would certainly be an advantage to be without sin. Why does no one ever simply DO this? (if you are to consider someone you know obeying like the Ten Commandments, make sure to consider the FIRST one).</p>

<p>With respect to your primary question (“When an event happens, how come it isn’t confirmed in other people’s writings?”), I would respond that there are certainly many religious events that are recorded by many peoples who are not adherents to that religion. For example, I find it interesting that many, many cultures (not just those of middle eastern cultures or European influence) have histories of an ancient flood of “Biblical” proportions. Other events are not necessarily recorded by opponents of a particular religion. First of all, there is not a great deal of documentation of the times when these events occurred (it is not like there are hundreds of histories of the middle east written by different authors that have survived the millennia). Even if a particular truth had been known at a time in the past, there certainly are POLITICAL reasons why it may not have been reported accurately. For example, if hundreds of years from now you were to read an early 21st Century history book or newspaper printed in the middle east, chances are that it would say that Americans bombed our own World Trade Center and fraudulently tried to blame it on radical Muslims. Recent polls in the middle east, such as in Saudi Arabia, indicate that something like 90 percent of middle easterners believe Americans, rather than Muslim terrorists, bombed the World Trade Center on 9/11. Another possibility is that perhaps the internet bloggers were tied up writing about something else the day some “religious” event occurred.</p>

<p>Response to your particular questions (paraphrased): “Was Jesus death and resurrection written about by ‘other historians’ at the time?” It was certainly documented by several different authors in the New Testament. Furthermore, many of these men gave their lives rather than deny the deity of Christ. I would think an atheist would have to explain away why men who had been around with Jesus would behave in such a manner. Were they all stupid or simply duped?</p>

<p>“Why do Jews and Christians have a story of Abraham being willing to sacrifice Isaac but Muslims “think God was going to sacrifice Ishmael?”” The Judeo-Christian story of Abraham and Isaac was around for hundreds of years before the advent of Islam. I am not enough of an expert on Islam to know how they relate this story to Ishmael. On this issue, from your description, it sounds like at least one of our religions is WRONG, but that is not surprising to me. Judaism and Christianity are incompatible with Islamic beliefs, just as Islam considers Jews and Christians infidels. Although we may agree that there is only one god, exactly WHO this god is has mutually exclusive answers for Christians and Muslims. It is not possible that we are both right.</p>

<p>“Do the Egyptians write about the parting of the Red Sea?” Besides a lack of writing from thousands of years ago, another simple explanation is available. In the movie Pirates of the Caribbean, Captain Jack Sparrow hears two guards retelling a story of the dreaded pirate ship which purportedly captured an American ship “… and all on board were killed.” “No one escaped?” he asks. “Then who was around to tell the story?” In the same way, the Bible is very clear that the entire Egyptian army that was chasing the Israelites was destroyed. Hundreds of thousands of Israelites escaped into the desert, but no Egyptian witnesses survived. (As an aside: haven’t you seen “The Ten Commandments”? Fortunately, someone around there was forward-thinking enough to have a camera handy at the time.)</p>

<p>Ultimately, both religious and non-religious people all need to make sense of the world in terms of history, people’s temperaments and orientations (e.g. Christians believe that all people have a natural orientation toward selfishness and sin), explaining possible “miracles”, the creation, etc. As an evangelical Christian, I can see very clearly in the Bible that no one is going to be convinced strictly from logic that Christianity is true. We believe that without the Holy Spirit it is impossible for a man to believe. Throughout the Bible, it is noted that to an atheist, Christianity is utter foolishness. Nevertheless, many non-Christians would also consider most atheistic and agnostic world-views to be utter foolishness, if one examines them closely enough.</p>

<p>If your friend’s objective is to justify his/her current beliefs by finding at least one hypocrite who claims to be from each religion, then that can be accomplished quite easily. If, on the other hand, he/she wants to find a world view that is consistent with history, experience, etc., then that is a much more difficult quest.</p>

<p>pafather–Some good, thoughtful answers. It is true that people try to make sense of the world and their experiences, and they do it in different ways. We don’t know everything, of course, so there really is no one point of view that will make sense to everyone. There are many things that atheists cannot explain, such as where the universe came from in the first place. (Where did the material for the Big Bang come from?, etc.) There are questions Christians have trouble answering, such as Why does this person have a happy, long life, whereas that other person, who seems more deserving, dies young? And the experiences of some seem to point to a meaningless universe, whereas others can see “the hand of God” in the events of their lives. No matter what your religion, or lack thereof, everyone takes certain things on faith.</p>

<p>I can answer, at least partially a couple things. According to Jewish tradition and scripture, Isaac became the founder of the Hebrew race, the Jewish people, whereas Ishmael became the founder of the Arab race. Thus it makes sense that Muslims, since Islam originated among the Arabs, would want Ishmael to be the special son, rather than Isaac. However, the Jewish scripture was written long before the Koran, and Isaac is the son of the promise in the Old Testament.</p>

<p>As for the Chinese and Asians, they are not in the Bible for the same reason native Americans, Incas, English, Russians, etc. are not in it. The events in the Bible took place in the Middle East, and so it is about the people that lived there. However, Jesus does tell his followers to “go ye therefore into ALL the world.” So all peoples of the world are included in that statement.</p>

<p>As for verification, there are some outside writings that do mention Jesus and hint at the resurrection, although they tend to have other explanations. Of course, those who believed in it would have become Christians, so their accounts would be among the Christian accounts. Those who did not believe would give other explanations or just ignore it.</p>

<p>Anyway, good questions to ask. I hope your friends finds answers.</p>

<p>Is it possible that there is a God, but we just don’t understand God and our religions are wrong about God?</p>

<p>exactly, dstark.</p>

<p>There are no surviving Roman records of the First Century that refer to, nor are there any Jewish records that support the accounts in the Christian gospels — except one. </p>

<pre><code>In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his lengthy history of the Jews. While discussing the period in which the Jews of Judaea were governed by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilate, Josephus included the following account:
</code></pre>

<p>About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
(Based on the translation of Louis H. Feldman, The Loeb Classical Library.)</p>

<p>“Is it possible that there is a God, but we just don’t understand God and our religions are wrong about God?”</p>

<p>Of course. In fact, I would be willing to say, with a high percentage of certainty, that no religion on Earth today is 100% accurate in its understanding of God.</p>

<p>Many people do not believe that quote to be real.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml[/url]”>www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml</a></p>

<p>Josephus sure didn’t write much about the “Son of God”.</p>

<p>True, many things are possible, </p>

<p>it is also possible that those we love don’t really love us, at least not in the way we think they do…same with friends; still, we tend to believe that they do (if we do) and it may even be said that we have faith in the fact that they do (otherwise our love is premised on what? Compatibility? Status? Economics? ). </p>

<p>Still, deep within our souls we feel love: it can’t be denied. Maybe this is wrong, maybe love is really just the survival of the species, some sort of genetic greed.</p>

<p>It may be that someday we will find out that we were wrong about our loves, or come to believe we must have been wrong; but even this sad realization will be unlikely to make us loose faith in that invisible, irrational, transcendent something we feel, called love.</p>

<p>It could be that some people will never fall in love: sad, but I’ve heard stories. They simply haven’t felt love’s overwhelming take-down. In this same way, some have not felt the overwhelming thrust of divine love, something beyond the desire of the moment…it may be that neither of these two forms of love exist in fact, and all those people throughout all human history who claimed to have felt it deluded themselves, duped themselves—this is no small accusation; all their great poems, art, music, architecture, philosophy, suffering, sacrifice and hope was for nothing at all………….nothing, a delusion, nobody actually loved them back; there was nothing there: it was all a lie.</p>

<p>That is, of course, the other possibility for humanity: it sounds so very, very sad. I have faith it isn’t true, and faith is a wonderful thing…ask the person you love if you doubt it.</p>

<p>dStark,</p>

<p>“Is it possible that there is a God, but we just don’t understand God and our religions are wrong about God?”</p>

<p>Is it possible that God expects men and women to search for the truth, and that at the Day of Reckoning, He will consider the above quote a poor excuse for not even trying? Insofar as many religions are mutually incompatible, they cannot all be correct. However, some are much closer to the truth than others.</p>

<p>and we will know this how?</p>

<p>Pafather, I don’t have the answers.</p>

<p>When I look outside and see the immense size of the universe (and I only see such a small part of it), I think God is very busy and I don’t think choosing the right religion is going to make a difference.</p>

<p>The size difference between a person and the universe is probably larger than the relationship between one cell and a human being. You probably know that better than I do. </p>

<p>We really don’t take up much space.</p>

<p>emeraldkitty,</p>

<p>There are millions, billions of people in this world, and yet you fell in love with one specific soul…how did you know it was this one? Do you believe you were wrong?</p>

<p>I have yet to, though I hope to, and I hope I am not wrong.</p>

<p>dstark, much of what’s written in the Bible is either not historically true or of indeterminate historical accuracy. That doesn’t mean it’s any less significant or any less meaningful. Even the Gospels can’t agree on the basic events of Jesus’ life.</p>

<p>In response to your other post, you can believe in God in any way that makes sense to you and certainly that can be outside the framework of any religion. Personally, I don’t see God as a sentient being at all, but a sort of elseness that I can’t really define.</p>

<p>^
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from someone who’s “spiritual but not religious,” and has studied religion extensively as an academic subject.</p>

<p>Eclipse0, what did you believe before you studied religion? Has the study of religion changed your thinking?</p>

<p>I think if God wanted us all to believe the same thing, She could have arranged it accordingly. It seems to me that if one believes that there is such a thing as God’s plan for the world, it clearly incorporated people approaching Her in different ways.</p>

<p>Hey, I believe that for something as basic as learning styles - why should religion be any different? ;)</p>

<p>Quran:</p>

<p>“Vie with each other in good works and in the end I [God] will let you know [in heaven] in which ways you differed”</p>

<p>sounds good to me.</p>

<p>Did you see Pulp Fiction? A kid fires 7 shots point blank at 2 hitmen, played by John Travaolta and Sam Jackson. All 7 shots miss the intended target(s). Sam Jackson character sees this as a true miracle, an act of God, divine intervention. It touches him and he decides to get out of the hitman business. John Travolta sees it as dumb luck, just a chance happening. That pretty much sums up the debate - different points of view. :)</p>

<p>actualy fountain- I have loved several different men- and if I wasn’t married I am sure I could love several different more :wink:
I don’t beleive he is “the” one- frankly- but he is the one I married and he is the one I have the commitment to.
I was very young when I married- but “sexual attraction” made me think that I was in love.
Loving someone and being in love with them are totally different.
I think you really need to know and love yourself, before you can find your life partner- I was much too young and had much too tough of a life to be in that place-
I don’t really see how this relates to religion- I think some religions are too egocentric to be spiritual, but they are often some of the most successful- I don’t know if many of us know what our gut is telling us anymore.</p>

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<p>Your friend has unrealistic expectations in at least three ways:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>History and Scripture are two different sorts of documents written for quite different purposes.</p></li>
<li><p>Modern mass communications didn’t exist back then. Making a historical record of something was much more of a hit-or-miss thing.</p></li>
<li><p>All these stories are thousands of years old. The stories get muddled in the retelling or lost altogether.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Suetonius mentions Jesus if not the resurrection. Probably the best direct Roman source, if it still existed - which it does not, would be the administrative records of Pilate’s procuratorship. It would probably read something brief like: </p>

<p>“Executed the criminal Jesus for sedition and inciting riot. His followers removed his body from his tomb leading to the popular story that he had risen from the dead.” </p>

<p>This would very likely be the Roman view of the whole thing. Jesus’ followers had different view.</p>

<p>According to the Bible, after the resurrection Jesus appeared to a few dozen or so followers and then ascended into heaven. He didn’t resume preaching to big crowds, and he sure didn’t turn up back at Pilate’s place. It’s not surprising that contemporary Roman accounts, which are thin in the first place, ignore the whole resurrection thing.</p>

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<p>Well, now you are going back about 5000 years, back to about the time when writing was first being invented. This historical trail is extremely cold. Muslims and Jews & Christians cannot even agree on what happened 4 years ago on 9/11 - and you are expecting them to agree on an event, with no witnesses, that happened 5000 years ago? </p>

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<p>Nope. Ancient Egyptian history doesn’t even mention that the Jews were ever enslaved in the first place, much less that they miraculously escaped. It’s not part of the Egyptian story. It’s not a story they would likely remember fondly. </p>

<p>All history is always told from a point of view, even history that attempts to be scrupulously honest. Assuming that some form of the events happened, perhaps from the Egyptian point of view this whole thing was no big deal - just another Asiatic people they conquered that came and went. By contrast, from the Jewish point of view this event is huge, since the whole existence of their people hung in the balance. Or maybe it could be as simple as the Egyptian records being lost. This event is about 32 or 33 centuries old - another very cold trail.</p>

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<p>Well some Asians appear at the Nativity in the form of the Wise Men. But the simple answer is that the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim scriptures tell the story of what went on in the Near East. It’s unrealistic to expect them to tell us much about what was going on in remote places like China. The Chinese will have to tell us that.</p>